Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[marke]

Amen, and I have taken his exhortation to heart, and quit committing sin.
Have you taken that "step" in the right direction?

How amazing that you quit sin after you were saved, but the Apostle Paul did not.

Romans 7

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[Clete]

By your standard, Catholics are saved. Pretty much the only ones in Christendom who aren't saved would be those who deny the Bible doctrine of the tri-unity of the God head, and flat out liberal apostates. Everyone else would readily sign off on your statement of faith, meaning you'd accept them as members of the Body?

We've disagreed very strongly on this point for years but I just want to clarify: you do realize that's where you stand?

First of all, I reject your premise. This is an appeal to consequence fallacy*.

Who gets included and who doesn't has nothing to do with determining what is and what is not the gospel.

I'd love to debate what should and should not be included in that list of doctrines! Also, if you want to argue that, in addition to a list of doctrines that must be affirmed, there is also a list of doctrines which one must deny, then I'd hear that argument as well. Post something on my thread (linked below) and we can discuss it in as much detail as you'd like.

The Gospel Proper​

Clete

*Appeal to consequences is a fallacy in which someone concludes that a statement, belief, or hypothesis must be true (or false) simply because it would lead to desirable (or undesirable) consequences if it were so.

 

[Clete]

Do you know that the devil believes all of that?
It is what we do with the knowledge that determines our fate.

When did Satan ever confess with his mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge his need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead?

When did he ever do such a thing, Hoping?

NEVER! That's when! He not only didn't, but hasn't, wouldn't and won't!

Not that it would matter anyway because Jesus didn't die for Satan or any of the angels (fallen or otherwise)!

DO YOU HAVE ANY DISCERNMENT WHATSOEVER?

 

[musterion]

First of all, I reject your premise. This is an appeal to consequence fallacy*.

Who gets included and who doesn't has nothing to do with determining what is and what is not the gospel.

I'd love to debate what should and should not be included in that list of doctrines! Also, if you want to argue that, in addition to a list of doctrines that must be affirmed, there is also a list of doctrines which one must deny, then I'd hear that argument as well. Post something on my thread (linked below) and we can discuss it in as much detail as you'd like.

The Gospel Proper​

Clete

*Appeal to consequences is a fallacy in which someone concludes that a statement, belief, or hypothesis must be true (or false) simply because it would lead to desirable (or undesirable) consequences if it were so.

One last time.

According to the points you listed as your standard of the necessary content of saving faith, you accept Catholics (as just one example), who do agree with your points, as your fellow members in the Body of Christ.

Yes or no?

 

[JudgeRightly]

The seminar is amazing but the book is better!

If you'd like a copy of the book, tell Connie to give you one and to charge to me. She's got my number if she wants to confirm or I can just call her.

I already have two copies, one physical and one PDF, but thanks for the offer. I even gave a third that I purchased to a local pastor for him to keep.

 

[Hoping]

So delusional liars are producing what sort of fruit?

As there are dozens, I'll provide two..."you can go to heaven without being born again".
Another one is "Ongoing sinners are saved."

Once again, you can defend - let me be clear - YOU, HOPING, can defend ANY DOCTRINE WHATSOEVER with the way you handle scripture.

As the only doctrine I am willing to defend are those taught by apostles and Godly teachers, I am comfortable with that...referral.

Pick any wacko nut job idiotic doctrine you care to name. Want to defend indulgences? You can! Want to defend the deity of Christ? You can! Want to defend the NON-deity of Christ? You can do that too! Want to defend the notion that David Koresh was a Messiah? You so totally CAN do it! How about a Christian Taoism Cult, want to start one of those? There are bible verses you can quote for that!

What are you defending?

There isn't ANYTHING that cannot be argued from the bible when you completely ignore who is talking, who is being spoken to and what is being talked about and why.

You are correct, so wouldn't it be wise to find our from whom you learn?

That might be the single most idiotic thing anyone has ever accused me of.

If I was in error, I apologize.
I thought you were "with" those here you ascribe to the false ascension of a "Paul's gospel".

 

[Hoping]

How amazing that you quit sin after you were saved, but the Apostle Paul did not.

Romans 7

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

He did, or at least I hope Paul did.
The answer to Paul's lament in Rom 7:23 is found in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul was freed from that "law in his members"
And Paul's answer to his Ro 7:24 lament was written in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Rom 7 isn't able to defend sin in the supposedly converted.

 

[Hoping]

When did Satan ever confess with his mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge his need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead?

When did he ever do such a thing, Hoping?

NEVER! That's when! He not only didn't, but hasn't, wouldn't and won't!

Not that it would matter anyway because Jesus didn't die for Satan or any of the angels (fallen or otherwise)!

DO YOU HAVE ANY DISCERNMENT WHATSOEVER?

He believes it.
That is all I'm saying.
So your doctrine does have one commandment you must follow in order to be saved...you must say, out loud, something or other.
Isn't that tantamount to a LAW for salvation?

 

[Clete]

One last time.

According to the points you listed as your standard of the necessary content of saving faith, you accept Catholics (as just one example), who do agree with your points, as your fellow members in the Body of Christ.

Yes or no?

It is not relevant whether they are Catholic! So far as I understand the gospel, there is no requirement to reject Catholic errors, or any other errors for that matter, so long as those errors do not have as a consequence the denial of any of those six points.

On what basis do you suggest that being a Catholic trumps belief in the gospel in regards to being saved?

I don't suggest that it's okay to be a Catholic. There are plenty of consequences that their errors cause that are terrible and ought to be avoided but I do not believe that they rise to a level that overcomes the redemptive value of Christ's shed blood and God's outright promises concerning the salvation of those who call on the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin and believe that God raised Him from the dead.

If you don't like that then I submit that you don't like the gospel! I didn't make these six points up, did I?

Now, maybe I'm wrong but I'm not the least bit persuaded by your fallacious manner of thinking or your personal opinions about what are acceptable consequences of proclaiming the gospel. If you want to make an argument then I'm all ears and will respond with interest and respect but don't come to me anymore with this nonsense. It's been soundly refuted and you can ignore it if you want by I won't be repeating myself to you any longer.

Clete

 

[Clete]

I already have two copies, one physical and one PDF, but thanks for the offer. I even gave a third that I purchased to a local pastor for him to keep.

Well, then you've got to read it!

In fact, I'm going to read it again myself.

God bless you, JR!
Clete

 

[Clete]

As there are dozens, I'll provide two..."you can go to heaven without being born again".
Another one is "Ongoing sinners are saved."

As the only doctrine I am willing to defend are those taught by apostles and Godly teachers, I am comfortable with that...referral.

What are you defending?

You are correct, so wouldn't it be wise to find our from whom you learn?

If I was in error, I apologize.
I thought you were "with" those here you ascribe to the false ascension of a "Paul's gospel".

Welcome to my ever growing ignore list.

 

[musterion]

It is not relevant whether they are Catholic! So far as I understand the gospel, there is no requirement to reject Catholic errors, or any other errors for that matter, so long as those errors do not have as a consequence the denial of any of those six points.

On what basis do you suggest that being a Catholic trumps belief in the gospel in regards to being saved?

I don't suggest that it's okay to be a Catholic. There are plenty of consequences that their errors cause that are terrible and ought to be avoided but I do not believe that they rise to a level that overcomes the redemptive value of Christ's shed blood and God's outright promises concerning the salvation of those who call on the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin and believe that God raised Him from the dead.

If you don't like that then I submit that you don't like the gospel! I didn't make these six points up, did I?

Now, maybe I'm wrong but I'm not the least bit persuaded by your fallacious manner of thinking or your personal opinions about what are acceptable consequences of proclaiming the gospel. If you want to make an argument then I'm all ears and will respond with interest and respect but don't come to me anymore with this nonsense. It's been soundly refuted and you can ignore it if you want by I won't be repeating myself to you any longer.

Clete

You're still infected with a mutant strain of semi-universalism, just as I remembered.

 

[Clete]

You're still infected with a mutant strain of semi-universalism, just as I remembered.

That's utter stupidity, bordering on outright insanity.

Establish that idiotic claim!

You won't even try, you idiotic fool!



What the Hell am I doing here! This website is 1000% a waste of time!

 

[musterion]

bye

 

[Clete]

bye

Just as I thought.

You've got exactly NOTHING!

You show up here, making patently idiot and insulting claims with absolutely no basis whatsoever other than some indefensible anti-Catholic bigotry.

Clete

 

[Arial]

You seem to 'know' you are 'elect'; how so?

Because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That He is God the Son and came from the Father as also Son of Man. That He lived a life of perfect obedience to all of God's law, both the letter of the Law and the spirit of the law. There was no sin in Him, but as perfect and holy, He suffered the death of a sinner and separation from God that sin justly deserves, as a substitute and atonement for those who believe.

Because I believe that after He did these things, because there was no sin in Him, death could not hold Him. He was raised from the dead and after 40 days of instructing the apostles, ascended back to the Father and is their now interceding on behalf of the believer. I believe that through my union with Him through faith, and that a gift of God by His grace, I am sealed by the Holy Spirit in Him, as His, for His glory, and by and with His righteousness, not my own. I believe that He will return a second time to receive His own to be with Him where He is, that at His second coming there will be a bodily resurrection of the dead, with glorified bodies for those in Christ and eternal separation from God for those who have rejected Him (either passively or actively). I believe that there will be a restoration of all of creation in which there will be no sin and therefore no results of sin and the believer will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

I only believe these things because God has enabled me by His Spirit to do so. If He had not, I would not, and would not want to. This is true of all who believe, even if they think it is because they made that decision or came to that belief by their own power or ability.

 

[musterion]

Just as I thought.

You've got exactly NOTHING!

You show up here, making patently idiot and insulting claims with absolutely no basis whatsoever other than some indefensible anti-Catholic bigotry.

Clete

Rome anathematized Paul's gospel at the council of Trent, but Catholics are only one example of those whom you said are saved by gospels other than Paul's. So I'm not the problem here.

Bye.

 

[Clete]

Rome anathematized Paul's gospel at the council of Trent, but Catholics are only one example of those whom you said are saved by gospels other than Paul's. So I'm not the problem here.

Bye.

You are the problem because I repeatedly invited you to make an argument and what you showed up with is mindless bigotry.

You could just as easily posted what you just said and then I would have asked you to establish how that has anything to do with whether any particular Catholic denies one or more of the six points I've listed and we could have had an interesting and substantive discussion and maybe we both would have learned something even if neither was persuaded by the other. But no!. What you come at me with is asinine stupidity the likes of which belongs in the mouths of idiots who couldn't think themselves out of a wet paper bag if their lives depended on it.

The gospel according to musterion...

• Do not allow yourself to be called a Catholic.
• Believe in Jesus.
• Do not associate with any who is called a Catholic.
• Admit that you're a sinner.
• Reject any syllable uttered at the council of Trent.
• Believe that Jesus is the creator.
• Stay as far away from any Catholic church building as is practicable.
• Believe that Jesus died for your sin and rose from the dead.
• Then, so long as you don't make the mistake of saying a prayer to a dead woman (Mary) you're probably saved, baring any accidental associations with Catholics.

Clete

 

[Idolater]

You are the problem because I repeatedly invited you to make an argument and what you showed up with is mindless bigotry.

You could just as easily posted what you just said and then I would have asked you to establish how that has anything to do with whether any particular Catholic denies one or more of the six points I've listed and we could have had an interesting and substantive discussion and maybe we both would have learned something even if neither was persuaded by the other. But no!. What you come at me with is asinine stupidity the likes of which belongs in the mouths of idiots who couldn't think themselves out of a wet paper bag if their lives depended on it.

The gospel according to musterion...

• Do not allow yourself to be called a Catholic.
• Believe in Jesus.
• Do not associate with any who is called a Catholic.
• Admit that you're a sinner.
• Reject any syllable uttered at the council of Trent.
• Believe that Jesus is the creator.
• Stay as far away from any Catholic church building as is practicable.
• Believe that Jesus died for your sin and rose from the dead.
• Then, so long as you don't make the mistake of saying a prayer to a dead woman (Mary) you're probably saved, baring any accidental associations with Catholics.

Clete

Just for the record, and this is my own 'Protestant' interpretation of what happened when I was bodily received into the Catholic Church: I but had to truthfully confess the Niceno-Constantinapolitano Creed, which doesn't say anything about praying to the Blessed Mother, believing in sins having different weightings, or any other 'Catholic mumbo-jumbo'. There's plenty of time to wrestle with all the things you might struggle with, all the while feasting on the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

btw Clete I believe this post of yours earned you my very first 'lol' 'Like' here, since the new forum. And I appreciate your levelheadedness here in this particular matter.

 

[glorydaz]

Sadly, the catholic church keeps people from ever hearing the simple gospel of grace.
Without which, in this age, is the only way to salvation.
I was a catholic, went to catholic school, did all the rigmorole and had NO idea we could be saved by grace.

Most other churches now days are no better. They are preaching the Kingdom gospel for crying out loud.
Nothing can be added to the grace of God for salvation.