Being Rich Is A Sin

[Squeaky]

Being Rich Is A Sin

2 Cor 8:12-15
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened;
14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack-- that there may be equality.
15 As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack."
1 Cor 16:2-4
2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem.
4 But if it is fitting that I go also, they will go with me.
3 Jn 1:2-8
2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.
3 For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth.
4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
5 Beloved, you do faithfully whatever you do for the brethren and for strangers,
6 who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,
7 because they went forth for His name's sake, taking nothing from the Gentiles.
8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may become fellow workers for the truth.
James 2:5-9
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Rev 3:17-18
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
18 "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
Matt 23:1-9
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 "But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
James 1:9-10
9 Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation,
10 but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away.
James 5:1-6
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
1 Tim 6:10-12
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
(NKJ)

xxx 2Co 8-15 The rich is condemned because they will never be able to give it all away so there is nothing left over.

[Mar 12:41–44
[41] Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many [who were] rich put in much.
[42] Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans.
[43] So He called His disciples to [Himself] and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;
[44] "for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

[Rom 14:23
[23] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] from faith; for whatever [is] not from faith is sin.
[Jas 4:17
[17] Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do [it], to him it is sin.

 

[Bright Raven]

By Randy Alcorn

Regarding our attitude toward wealth, Jesus gave commands. Regarding our possessions and lifestyle, he gave us principles. Jesus did not hand us a checklist of what we can and cannot own, and how we can or cannot spend money. Jesus didn’t say just one thing about money and possessions. He said many things. They aren’t random clashing noises, but a carefully composed melody and harmony to which we must carefully listen as we develop our lifestyles. If he gave us a checklist, we would not have to depend prayerfully and thoughtfully on him to guide us into the kind of lifestyle that pleases him. On the one hand Christ said, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth” (Matthew 6:19). On the other hand Paul gave the following instructions to Timothy:

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19)

Note that Paul didn’t say, “Command those who are rich to stop being rich.” The implication is that there is legitimate diversity in the amount of money and possessions held by Christians. Most early Christians weren’t people of high social standing (see 1 Corinthians 1:26-29).

Other believers were well-to-do, which explains why Paul can address those he calls “rich” in the church. One of the first converts was the Ethiopian eunuch, who was “an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians” (Acts 8:27). He was a wealthy man with a huge sphere of influence. Cornelius had great political power and wealth. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus had a large home, as did Mary the mother of Mark, who had servants and in whose house “many people” gathered to pray (see Acts 12:12). As the church spread, before there were church buildings, meetings took place in the sizeable homes of the more wealthy believers.

Jesus spoke of the “deceitfulness of wealth” (Mark 4:19). The psalmist warns, “Though your riches increase, do not set your heart on them” (Psalm 62:10). The dangers of materialism are far-reaching. We should not think that we’re immune to the value-changing nature of wealth: “To suppose, as we all suppose, that we could be rich and not behave the way the rich behave, is like saying we could drink all day and stay sober.”

The Treasure PrincipleAlthough many will volunteer to bear them, riches do have their burdens. Wealth is a relational barrier. It keeps us from having open relationships. The wealthy say, “I don’t know if people like me for who I am, or only because of my money.” There’s a solution: Give the money away and then you’ll find out!

There’s no room for making wealth a source of security, or for lacking generosity or hospitality, or for an unwillingness to share. Still, Paul left a door open for Christians to be “rich in this present world”—but only if they carefully follow the accompanying guidelines related to their open-handed use of that wealth. The rich are not told they must take a vow of poverty. They are told, essentially, to take a vow of generosity. They are to be rich in good deeds, quick to share, and quick to part with their assets for kingdom causes. In doing so, they will lay up treasures in heaven.

 

[Squeaky]

Maybe you havent read this far in your bible yet.

[Luk 18:22
[22] So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

 

[drbrumley]

Maybe you havent read this far in your bible yet.

[Luk 18:22
[22] So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Reading other peoples mail huh?

 

[drbrumley]

Maybe you havent read this far in your bible yet.

[Luk 18:22
[22] So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Have you done that? If not, you dont have anything to say...

 

[Squeaky]

Have you done that? If not, you dont have anything to say...

I said
I've given everything away twice.

 

[7djengo7]

Maybe you havent [sic] read this far in your bible yet.

[Luk 18:22
[22] So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Sell your computer, or whatever device(s) you own, which you use for promulgating your silliness online. If you want to tell us that you don't own any such things, and that you, instead, rent access to those of someone else for your purpose, then stop paying the rent money to your access provider, and distribute it, instead, to the poor. If you want to tell us that you don't pay any money for access to such things, but that, instead, you are benevolently granted access to them, gratis, by someone who does own such things, then stop spending your time using those things, and, instead, use your time to preach to the owners of those things that they ought to sell those things (the use of which they've been generously granting to you for free) and to distribute their sales-proceeds to the poor. While you're at it, sell everything else you own--cars, houses, clothing, food, absolutely everything--and then, distribute your sales-proceeds to the poor. And, while you're selling off all your goods, be sure and preach to all the buyers of your goods--that is, to the new owners of the goods you previously owned--that they need to sell all their goods (including all the goods they just bought off of you)--and distribute their sales-proceeds to the poor.

PS: I see, from what you just wrote, that you obviously consider yourself to be poor. Nay, among the poorest of the poor! Obviously, you would, like any other good little self-righteous commie, disdain to call yourself one of the "haves"--those are the folk against whom you're griping. But, you don't even rise to the level of the "have nots". Why, you're even more abject in your poverty than they in theirs! Still, you don't even rise to the level of the "haven'ts"!! Why, you can't even cough up the ten-billionth of a widow's mite needed to pay for a measly apostrophe.

 

[ok doser]

I said
I've given everything away twice.

Including your computer?

 

[Bradley D]

Money has a influence on everyone. It seems the more one has the greater concern they have for it.


"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:18-26).

 

[Squeaky]

Money has a influence on everyone. It seems the more one has the greater concern they have for it.


"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:18-26).

I said
Your right.

[1Ti 6:10
[10] For the love of money is a root of all [kinds of] evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

[nikolai_42]

Being Rich Is A Sin

Define "rich". Remember, Job was a righteous man and one of the wealthiest men of his day.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she *****, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
Job 1:1-3

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:8

And as if that weren't enough, what happened to him at the end of his saga?

And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she *****.
He had also seven sons and three daughters.
And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
Job 42:10-15

Wealth, friends and desirable daughters. The Lord BLESSED Job with sin? No. The point here is that Job was not driven by his wealth - but it was entrusted to him as a faithful servant.

And it would have been the easiest thing in the world for Jesus to say straight out that it is a sin to be wealthy. He carefully did NOT say that. Rather He said that it is hard for a rich man to be saved and He said that the LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. That is not the same thing as saying being rich is a sin. In fact, riches can be a reward :

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mark 10:29-30

The difference is, that man who has such a reward is not possessed by his possessions (as the rich young ruler was). Rather those possessions are put in their proper order.

That doesn't mean that most people handle riches properly (I agree that they don't) - but the issue is not one of having or not having. It is one of stewardship.

2 Cor 8:12-15
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened;
14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack-- that there may be equality.
15 As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack."

If the Corinthians had not had riches, how could they supply Paul's lack?

1 Cor 16:2-4
2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem.
4 But if it is fitting that I go also, they will go with me.

This has nothing to say about being rich as sinful. Rather, I would think that it hints at the opposite. What does God say about unfaithful Israel :

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi 3:10

Faithful giving to the Lord (in all parts of life) brings abundance of reward. The issue is with the covetous who look to this only as a means to gain. That is wickedness. That is focusing on the riches themselves and having money as an idol (i.e. loving money). But God delights to bless those that seek HIM.

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
But godliness with contentment is great gain.
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
I Timothy 6:5-7

The Godly man can live in wealth and in poverty alike - because his state of mind and his satisfaction don't come from wealth:

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:11-13

If you aren't content, you're very likely to be covetous. And what is that?

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:5

However, that doesn't mean a man is required to be poor to be content. That emphasizes his dependence on God so that he doesn't have the temptation of the rich to trust in uncertain riches. But at the same time, a poor man can still be in the same predicament - coveting the wealth of the wealthy. They are in no better position than those who are trusting in their riches. Both are idolators.

3 Jn 1:2-8
2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.
3 For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth.
4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
5 Beloved, you do faithfully whatever you do for the brethren and for strangers,
6 who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,
7 because they went forth for His name's sake, taking nothing from the Gentiles.
8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may become fellow workers for the truth.

And how does this support the contention that being rich is necessarily sinful?

James 2:5-9
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

This is about partiality to those who are wealthy - not about riches being sinful. It is about the heart of those who look upon the rich, not about those who are rich.

Rev 3:17-18
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
18 "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

The Laodiceans were self-satisfied. They were looking on externals to reason that they were right before God. Rather, they were blinded by their own success. This, again, is the snare of riches. It makes one think all is well because of physical prosperity. But - I repeat - there is nothing saying it is a sin to be wealthy. That's just as much a superficial statement as the Laodicean statement that they were rich and had need of nothing. Both statements fail to look on the heart.

Matt 23:1-9
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 "But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

I'm not sure what this has to do with wealth at all.

James 1:9-10
9 Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation,
10 but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away.

And this verse only goes to prove my point - that the rich man's glory in his humility. If he were to focus on his riches he would not be humble but would be self-assured and proud - trusting in riches. But if the rich man is keenly aware that he is no different than any other flesh (and that his riches are a transitory thing), it certainly will be to his glory. And there is no hint he is sinning by being rich. Rather, this scripture (again) addresses the heart of the individual (irrespective of station in life).

James 5:1-6
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

This is really the only passage that comes close to saying what you are alleging. But even then, if you read it properly, it is talking about those whose identity is in their wealth and power. James says "...you have fattened your hearts..." and also "....condemned...murdered the just...". The proud and wealthy man who has power because of his wealth is not trusting in God. But the wealth is not being condemned here - it's the corrupt heart. Or should we imagine that Job himself would be covered by James' words?

1 Tim 6:10-12
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
(NKJ)

Yes...the LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Not the money itself. So I say again - being rich is not sinful in and of itself. And if it were - where do you draw the line between rich and not rich?

xxx 2Co 8-15 The rich is condemned because they will never be able to give it all away so there is nothing left over.

If wealth is sinful, then by giving it away isn't he potentially causing someone else to sin by giving them wealth? Remember, you said (the state of) being rich is sinful. If he doesn't give it all away but uses it wisely, isn't he commended by Jesus himself?

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Luke 16:9-12

It's about using things wisely...not just giving them away (for someone else to use unwisely)

Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
I Cor 4:2

[Mar 12:41–44
[41] Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many [who were] rich put in much.
[42] Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans.
[43] So He called His disciples to [Himself] and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;
[44] "for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

Absolutely true. But Jesus isn't making any point about the wealthy having wealth. He's merely making the point that the widow gave much more because she gave out of lack. Your judgment is based on what you have - not what others have. That's it.

[Rom 14:23
[23] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] from faith; for whatever [is] not from faith is sin.
[Jas 4:17
[17] Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do [it], to him it is sin.

If someone can be wealthy and do so without doubting - and using the money wisely and generously - is he sinning?

Again....my original question....who decides what is "rich" and "not rich" and where is the line?

 

[Squeaky]

Define "rich". Remember, Job was a righteous man and one of the wealthiest men of his day.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she *****, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
Job 1:1-3

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:8

And as if that weren't enough, what happened to him at the end of his saga?

And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she *****.
He had also seven sons and three daughters.
And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
Job 42:10-15

Wealth, friends and desirable daughters. The Lord BLESSED Job with sin? No. The point here is that Job was not driven by his wealth - but it was entrusted to him as a faithful servant.

And it would have been the easiest thing in the world for Jesus to say straight out that it is a sin to be wealthy. He carefully did NOT say that. Rather He said that it is hard for a rich man to be saved and He said that the LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. That is not the same thing as saying being rich is a sin. In fact, riches can be a reward :

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mark 10:29-30

The difference is, that man who has such a reward is not possessed by his possessions (as the rich young ruler was). Rather those possessions are put in their proper order.

That doesn't mean that most people handle riches properly (I agree that they don't) - but the issue is not one of having or not having. It is one of stewardship.



If the Corinthians had not had riches, how could they supply Paul's lack?



This has nothing to say about being rich as sinful. Rather, I would think that it hints at the opposite. What does God say about unfaithful Israel :

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi 3:10

Faithful giving to the Lord (in all parts of life) brings abundance of reward. The issue is with the covetous who look to this only as a means to gain. That is wickedness. That is focusing on the riches themselves and having money as an idol (i.e. loving money). But God delights to bless those that seek HIM.

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
But godliness with contentment is great gain.
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
I Timothy 6:5-7

The Godly man can live in wealth and in poverty alike - because his state of mind and his satisfaction don't come from wealth:

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:11-13

If you aren't content, you're very likely to be covetous. And what is that?

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:5

However, that doesn't mean a man is required to be poor to be content. That emphasizes his dependence on God so that he doesn't have the temptation of the rich to trust in uncertain riches. But at the same time, a poor man can still be in the same predicament - coveting the wealth of the wealthy. They are in no better position than those who are trusting in their riches. Both are idolators.



And how does this support the contention that being rich is necessarily sinful?



This is about partiality to those who are wealthy - not about riches being sinful. It is about the heart of those who look upon the rich, not about those who are rich.



The Laodiceans were self-satisfied. They were looking on externals to reason that they were right before God. Rather, they were blinded by their own success. This, again, is the snare of riches. It makes one think all is well because of physical prosperity. But - I repeat - there is nothing saying it is a sin to be wealthy. That's just as much a superficial statement as the Laodicean statement that they were rich and had need of nothing. Both statements fail to look on the heart.



I'm not sure what this has to do with wealth at all.



And this verse only goes to prove my point - that the rich man's glory in his humility. If he were to focus on his riches he would not be humble but would be self-assured and proud - trusting in riches. But if the rich man is keenly aware that he is no different than any other flesh (and that his riches are a transitory thing), it certainly will be to his glory. And there is no hint he is sinning by being rich. Rather, this scripture (again) addresses the heart of the individual (irrespective of station in life).



This is really the only passage that comes close to saying what you are alleging. But even then, if you read it properly, it is talking about those whose identity is in their wealth and power. James says "...you have fattened your hearts..." and also "....condemned...murdered the just...". The proud and wealthy man who has power because of his wealth is not trusting in God. But the wealth is not being condemned here - it's the corrupt heart. Or should we imagine that Job himself would be covered by James' words?



Yes...the LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Not the money itself. So I say again - being rich is not sinful in and of itself. And if it were - where do you draw the line between rich and not rich?



If wealth is sinful, then by giving it away isn't he potentially causing someone else to sin by giving them wealth? Remember, you said (the state of) being rich is sinful. If he doesn't give it all away but uses it wisely, isn't he commended by Jesus himself?

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Luke 16:9-12

It's about using things wisely...not just giving them away (for someone else to use unwisely)

Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
I Cor 4:2



Absolutely true. But Jesus isn't making any point about the wealthy having wealth. He's merely making the point that the widow gave much more because she gave out of lack. Your judgment is based on what you have - not what others have. That's it.



If someone can be wealthy and do so without doubting - and using the money wisely and generously - is he sinning?

Again....my original question....who decides what is "rich" and "not rich" and where is the line?

I said
You are struggling for excuses. What was this based on?

[Luk 16:19–25, 27–31
[19] "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
[20] "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
[21] "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
[23] "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
[25] "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. ...
[26] 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
[27] "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
[28] 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
[30] "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
[31] "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

 

[nikolai_42]

I said
You are struggling for excuses.

Not excuses at all. I simply see that you have in mind that being rich itself is a sin when scripture clearly does not teach that. I freely admit that being rich is a serious snare, but it is not (itself) sinful.

Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Proverbs 30:7-9

What was this based on?

[Luk 16:19–25, 27–31
[19] "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
[20] "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
[21] "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
[23] "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
[25] "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. ...
[26] 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
[27] "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
[28] 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
[30] "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
[31] "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Being rich was not the rich man's sin here. Being rich and not giving to those in need around him was. If merely being wealthy were the reason this man was being tormented, it would not only not make sense (why is being wealthy worthy of torment) but it would put men like Job and Abraham himself in torments! Both men were very wealthy. It isn't how much you have that is the problem, it's what you do with what you have (and the heart that drives it). Matthew 25 is almost entirely about that one thing. I won't post it here because it's too long, but look at the parable in vv14-29 (or so). It describes a man giving various amounts of money to 3 servants. The ones who were commended used that money wisely. The one who was not commended simply buried what he had. He didn't do anything with it. The lord of the servants was looking for them to return a profit for him. And so as we recognize that this represents more than money, we also recognize it means profit is relative to the Kingdom and its principles. Just giving money away because you have too much does (in and of itself) nothing for or against the Kingdom. It doesn't benefit you and it doesn't necessarily advance the purposes of the Lord's work. Burying the talent didn't benefit the servant or the master. The Lord is not looking for poverty, He's looking for faithfulness. How you use what you have. Is it any surprise, then, that this follows that parable :

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:34-40

Many of these things that they did involve things...money...wealth.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:41-46

The rich man "fared sumptuously" - he indulged himself and let the beggar live as he was. He saw the beggar every day and still didn't feed him or clothe him as he could easily have afforded to do. These who are condemned at the end of Matthew 25 are not condemned because they were wealthy, but because they didn't use what they have wisely. I don't believe this is teaching works salvation - but rather that those who trust God will show the fruit of that and not trust in uncertain riches. However, those who do trust God AND have wealth will use it wisely - to His glory.

With that said, you still haven't answered my question. If it is a sin to be wealthy, how do you know if you are wealthy or not? Where is the dividing line between rich and not rich? You can't call something a sin and then not define it properly.

 

[Squeaky]

Not excuses at all. I simply see that you have in mind that being rich itself is a sin when scripture clearly does not teach that. I freely admit that being rich is a serious snare, but it is not (itself) sinful.

Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Proverbs 30:7-9



Being rich was not the rich man's sin here. Being rich and not giving to those in need around him was. If merely being wealthy were the reason this man was being tormented, it would not only not make sense (why is being wealthy worthy of torment) but it would put men like Job and Abraham himself in torments! Both men were very wealthy. It isn't how much you have that is the problem, it's what you do with what you have (and the heart that drives it). Matthew 25 is almost entirely about that one thing. I won't post it here because it's too long, but look at the parable in vv14-29 (or so). It describes a man giving various amounts of money to 3 servants. The ones who were commended used that money wisely. The one who was not commended simply buried what he had. He didn't do anything with it. The lord of the servants was looking for them to return a profit for him. And so as we recognize that this represents more than money, we also recognize it means profit is relative to the Kingdom and its principles. Just giving money away because you have too much does (in and of itself) nothing for or against the Kingdom. It doesn't benefit you and it doesn't necessarily advance the purposes of the Lord's work. Burying the talent didn't benefit the servant or the master. The Lord is not looking for poverty, He's looking for faithfulness. How you use what you have. Is it any surprise, then, that this follows that parable :

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:34-40

Many of these things that they did involve things...money...wealth.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:41-46

The rich man "fared sumptuously" - he indulged himself and let the beggar live as he was. He saw the beggar every day and still didn't feed him or clothe him as he could easily have afforded to do. These who are condemned at the end of Matthew 25 are not condemned because they were wealthy, but because they didn't use what they have wisely. I don't believe this is teaching works salvation - but rather that those who trust God will show the fruit of that and not trust in uncertain riches. However, those who do trust God AND have wealth will use it wisely - to His glory.

With that said, you still haven't answered my question. If it is a sin to be wealthy, how do you know if you are wealthy or not? Where is the dividing line between rich and not rich? You can't call something a sin and then not define it properly.

I said
Well that is not good for you. If your going to dispute one of the revelations of Jesus Christ you shouldnt try to do it with the old testament.

[Jhn 10:1, 8
[1] "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ...
[8] "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Now if you try to be justified in your argument with the old testament. You will fall from grace and be subject to the whole entire old testament law.

[Gal 5:1–4
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
[2] Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
[3] And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
[4] You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[Right Divider]

Money has a influence on everyone. It seems the more one has the greater concern they have for it.

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:18-26).

Do you have even the slightest idea why Jesus told them this?

 

[Bradley D]

Do you have even the slightest idea why Jesus told them this?

Live for the spiritual not the material.

 

[Right Divider]

Live for the spiritual not the material.

Nope, try again.

 

[steko]

I said
Your right.

Nope, probably his left.

 

[Right Divider]

Nope, probably his left.

:french:

 

[nikolai_42]

I said
Well that is not good for you. If your going to dispute one of the revelations of Jesus Christ you shouldnt try to do it with the old testament.

I'm not disputing one of the revelations of Jesus Christ. I'm disputing one of the revelations of Squeaky. I repeat that NOWHERE does Jesus ever say that being rich itself is a sin. You are trying to make Him say that - I understand that - but scripture is unified on the matter (Old and New Testaments).

You haven't answered my question yet - what is the dividing line between "rich" and "not rich"?

[Jhn 10:1, 8
[1] "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ...
[8] "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Now if you try to be justified in your argument with the old testament. You will fall from grace and be subject to the whole entire old testament law.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 8:20

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39

Being justified with the Old Testament isn't wrong - rather misusing it is wrong. And the Law is not the entire OT - rather, it is referring to being justified by works dealt with in the Commandments ("Thou shalt not..."). Jesus Himself used the OT to do many things (including show how that He had to suffer, die and be resurrected - see Luke 24:27). Philip reasoned with the Ethiopian Eunuch out of Isaiah. Was he trying to justify himself by the Old Testament? They are using the OT properly - to show truth. The OT is just as much God's Word as the NT. But if one is trying to be justified by the Law, he should already realize the folly of that.

The OT never condemns wealth itself but Solomon did warn many times about the dangers of it.

Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 11:4

He that trusteth in his riches shall fall; but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.
Proverbs 11:28

A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.
The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of them all.
Proverbs 22:1-2

And AGAIN...Jesus promised riches to those who left all for Him. Riches both in this life and the next (Mark 10:30, Luke 18:30 etc...). Did Jesus speak against Himself?

[Gal 5:1–4
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
[2] Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
[3] And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
[4] You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I am not talking about circumcision. I am not talking in any way about being justified by the Law. I have uttered no commandment of the Law in respect to wealth. I am merely saying wealth is not inherently sinful. It carries with it many temptations and snares - this is certain (I Timothy 6:9) - but being wealthy ITSELF is not sinful. If a man is blessed of the Lord in material things, he should use those things to glorify the Lord - not get rid of them.

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
I John 3:16-17

We all do have to give account with how we used what we were given. But it's the one who does not give when the opportunity presents itself that will be judged more harshly. And you can't give if you don't have. It isn't wrong to give away everything - but to condemn those that are rich is to bind their consciences with something God doesn't. Freely have you received. Freely give. If a man does so with his worldly possessions and is still rich, is that sinful?

I am asking again - how do you define "rich" and "not rich"? If it is a sin to be rich, then you have implied a commandment ("Thou shalt not be rich"). How do you determine who is rich? Where's the dividing line? If I'm not rich, am I exempt from giving to others?