Be / do good because "you're told to"

[pqmomba8]

I will bet u r... [sarcasm alert]

I couldn't love God either... if it weren't for Jesus... Jesus is proof that God cares about us.. The Father doesn't love us the way we WANT to be loved or think we should be loved... He sent Jesus... and that is what is needed... a Friend who loves unconditionally... and does not judge us harshly if we are trying...


+++

LOL, no such thing as "unconditional love".

You're a Catholic, right? Here's a condition that G-d already gave you - if you don't put a small amount of water on an infant's forehead and it dies in infancy, it BURNS FOREVER!! That's a condition of a PSYCOPATH!!

 

[Tambora]

I recognize a right of an individual not to be unduly negatively impacted by another individual(s.)

"Unduly"?
How does your 'authority' determine what is 'unduly'?

That's why we have police, armed forces, etc. So?

Ummm, they enforce the rules of the authority, they are not the authority that make the rules.
We are talking about who gets to make the rules.

 

[pqmomba8]

"Unduly"?
How does your 'authority' determine what is 'unduly'?

Ummm, they enforce the rules of the authority, they are not the authority that make the rules.
We are talking about who gets to make the rules.

Yeah, I get it and I know exactly where you're going with this. I'm not taking the bait. We can talk forever about what "authority" means and in what context. As I said earlier - everything in life is about context. There are several "contexts" to authority.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Thank you Selaphiel, PureX and Lo for your tangible contribution to the subject matter of this thread. You actullyhad valid arument that c e "gdigested" in the contet of this discussion. Everyone else - eh, just a egurgitation of the "same old, same old.

Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT?

The threat is conceptual and beyond our comprehension as is heaven. If God stood before you in all His might with He'll viewed in it's ugliness and horror as well, there would be no choice but in fear to bow down. What gets people to truley love and worship God is the love they have found in Him. Nothing else can. I barely think about heaven or He'll. I'm not gonna lie and say the cares and concerns of this world are not pulling at me, fighting against me connecting to Him and His love, because they are. But when I in humility worship, love Him those concerns are no where to be found.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

You are most welcome, the question you ask is very important.

I do not believe in eternal damnation myself, I lean towards an universalism of apokatastasis.

There are probably quite a few that have a relationship to God based on fear and self-security. That is a very problematic relationship to have to the divine, probably not very healthy either.

This is why I think Luther said (or rather reminded us of) something important. If salvation is by grace, that is not of our merit, then we are truly free to love both God and neighbor. There would be nothing to gain for one self by doing good deeds. Those deeds would then assume their proper object, namely the neighbor and truly be in the service of God. Serving God purely out of fear and self-interest only serves to illumine what Christianity considers to be the root problem in man, namely pride.

Fear of God as a virtue is often misunderstood. It is not meant to be fear as in terror, but rather fear as in awe. But Christians must immediately qualify what we are in awe of, not of might and terror, but of infinite love, forgiveness and humility. Paul speaks of the wisdom that is foolishness to the world, that wisdom is Christ crucified. The glory of God is the crucified Son, the one who forgives even those who tortures and kills him.

This should be obvious to anyone who knows about Christianity. Sadly, it quickly diminishes and returns to worship of God as Emperor writ large, rather than crucified slave.

He is to be feared because of His Holiness and loved because of His love that is part of that same Holiness. The idea of fear should be present. Don't touch a hot pan. Its not a good idea, but without a love connection with Him we are all destined for failure. Fear alone won't do the trick.

 

[Selaphiel]

He is to be feared because of His Holiness and loved because of His love that is part of that same Holiness. The idea of fear should be present. Don't touch a hot pan. Its not a good idea, but without a love connection with Him we are all destined for failure. Fear alone won't do the trick.

I have to disagree. God's holiness is his nature which is love. God's holiness cannot be divided up anymore than the nature of God can be divided up: His oneness is his goodness which is his truth which is his beauty.
There is a temptation to think that Christ was a temporarily change in God and who is or just reveals part of Him. The kenosis of Christ is the revelation of God, and it is his humility and cold suffering love that is the reason why every knee will eventually bow down to his name. You can respond in fear, in the sense of awe, to his holiness. Awe in the sense of utmost reverence and wonder of the One who is identified with the crucified Son who forgives his crucifiers.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I have to disagree. God's holiness is his nature which is love. God's holiness cannot be divided up anymore than the nature of God can be divided up: His oneness is his goodness which is his truth which is his beauty.
There is a temptation to think that Christ was a temporarily change in God and who is or just reveals part of Him. The kenosis of Christ is the revelation of God, and it is his humility and cold suffering love that is the reason why every knee will eventually bow down to his name. You can respond in fear, in the sense of awe, to his holiness. Awe in the sense of utmost reverence and wonder of the One who is identified with the crucified Son who forgives his crucifiers.

Logically nothing inhibits Holiness including Righteous judge and Loving Father. Jesus said only fear God who can throw you into Hell. He can not go against His righteousness. If there was no Hell, no judgement the cross would not have been necessary. In one act God proved He is Just and love.

Another point on fear. It can not even be realized until we've known Him, until we've experienced Him and His love, His truth. With the knowledge of Him, the reality of our desperate situation in need of Him to escape the upcoming judgement is meant to keep us on the narrow path. The way a Father warns of the dangers that should be avoided. The light and the darkness can not be joined together, but His light is available to all who are thirsty.

 

[aikido7]

Most of traditional Christian belief is chock-full of things to believe that we "are told to." We grow up learning to pay attention to parents, older people or other authority figures--including those in the pulpit.

Christians could care less about Jesus, other than a "belief-based" faith that only insists on taking ancient theological phrases like "born of a virgin," "Messiah," "Son of God," etc.

These are faith claims--not actual history.

They are no different than calling Caesar Augustus "born of a virgin," "savior or the world," "God," etc. [Actually True!]. Or claiming that Mohammed entered Heaven by riding a big white horse into the sky one night.

We tend to see our own religious myths as "TRUE" while we easily assert that the myths of religions are nonsense.

 

[Selaphiel]

Logically nothing inhibits Holiness including Righteous judge and Loving Father. Jesus said only fear God who can throw you into Hell. He can not go against His righteousness. If there was no Hell, no judgement the cross would not have been necessary. In one act God proved He is Just and love.

This assumes the doctrine of penal substitution, a doctrine that has been questioned to put it mildly. I think it fails to understand the purpose of judgment and what is revealed in Christ. The purpose of judgment in is the establishment of a community of shalom, not punishment for the sake of punishment. Secondly, it fails to grasp that Christ is not simply a sponge for the wrath of God. What Christ does is to take the wages of sin, that is the implicit consequence of sin, upon himself for our sake.

Against penal substitution I will simply echo the question of the renowned theologian Robert Jenson: How can one think that killing his Son would soothe the wrath of God? If we rather conceive of the cross as God representing humanity and taking the consequence of sin upon himself, that is death, and breaking the chains of death in the resurrection (a reality we participate in through union with Christ), we are not stuck with the bipolar depiction of God that results from penal substitution. Rather God becomes the physician that heals mankind by taking the destructive forces of sin upon himself.

There is judgment. The problem I have with your view here is that you separate the identity of this judge from the revelation of God in Christ. The judge is none other than the crucified Son, who is the kenosis of infinite love and forgiveness. His judgment is a judgment of love, and the final judgment will be consumation of this. All knees shall bow to Christ Jesus and participate in Him and his resurrection.

The light and the darkness can not be joined together, but His light is available to all who are thirsty.

Any lack of thirst is a symptom of sin itself. I trust in the love of God to be strong enough to eventually awaken thirst in everyone. The love of God is stronger than sin and death.

To suggest a remnant for eternal suffering is for me the same as saying that God's love is not strong enough, that sin is not truly defeated. Darkness will indeed be destroyed. In my eyes, the error is in thinking that some people are only darkness, which is an implicit dualism of absolute good and absolute evil. That goes against the essential doctrine of evil as privatio boni, which goes against the idea of creatio ex nihilo. And if we were to conceive of pure darkness and pure evil, such a being would be destroyed by the judgment of God, not persist in eternal suffering.

 

[Tambora]

Yeah, I get it and I know exactly where you're going with this.

Then you needn't be fearful of the outcome.

I'm not taking the bait. We can talk forever about what "authority" means and in what context. As I said earlier - everything in life is about context. There are several "contexts" to authority.

The context is "do good or else the authority will punish you".

So, in context, on what basis do you decide who/what is the highest authority over you?
You gotta base it on something. So what is it?

 

[Angel4Truth]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

Does a small child do good (obey parents) because they fully understand what is good, or because they want to please their parent and or avoid consequences for disobedience?

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

 

[pqmomba8]

Then you needn't be fearful of the outcome.

The context is "do good or else the authority will punish you".

So, in context, on what basis do you decide who/what is the highest authority over you?
You gotta base it on something. So what is it?

Everyone, (ok, MOST people), even an Anarco-Capitalist like me, recognizes that an order must exist within a group (society).....or thing go bat***t crazy and no one (ok, most) can live a life according to their needs / wants. We therefore establish a coherent framework of this "order", which includes enforcement of certain (mostly) mutually agreed to rules of behavior. And before you go there, NO, this does not mean that these rules come from some "higher power" and are based on some "ultimate wisdom"......

Please, it's so easy and inherent.......why are we even having this conversation?

 

[pqmomba8]

Does a small child do good (obey parents) because they fully understand what is good, or because they want to please their parent and or avoid consequences for disobedience?

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Poor, poor, poor analogy. The child does want to please his / her parents, sure. The child does fear some kind of a punishment as a result of disobeying...however, the child is not under duress to "please the parent or else BE TORTURED for all of eternity. You need a G-d for something as abhorrent as that!

Shalom!

 

[Angel4Truth]

Poor, poor, poor analogy. The child does want to please his / her parents, sure. The child does fear some kind of a punishment as a result of disobeying...however, the child is not under duress to "please the parent or else BE TORTURED for all of eternity. You need a G-d for something as abhorrent as that!

Shalom!

Length of punishment is irrelevant to the point.

 

[pqmomba8]

Length of punishment is irrelevant to the point.

The CHARACTER of punishment (excruiciating torture) is very relevant. So is the length.

It's sad that so many rational adults condone such a horrible outcome...even if it is just a man-made fable.

 

[Delmar]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

Nothing could be lamer than concluding your opening argument with the words "case closed!"

 

[Angel4Truth]

The CHARACTER of punishment (excruiciating torture) is very relevant. So is the length.

no it isnt, because a child of God will not suffer hell.

It's sad that so many rational adults condone such a horrible outcome...even if it is just a man-made fable.

You seem worried enough about it to try to convince of otherwise.

 

[pqmomba8]

Nothing could be lamer than concluding your opening argument with the words "case closed!"

Touche. Let me restate that - subjectively speaking, nothing could be lamer. (Everything in life is subjective.)

 

[pqmomba8]

no it isnt, because a child of God will not suffer hell.


You seem worried enough about it to try to convince of otherwise.

So everyone who is not a "child of G-d", should be TORTURED for eternity. That's absolutely repugnant!

Oh, please - I'm engaging in a dialogue.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Oh, please - I'm engaging in a dialogue.

With yourself?