Novel for Bling
Novel for Bling
bling said:
Thank you gain for sticking in there.
Patman, I feel we are going backwards your answers are generating more questions then answers, a lot of which I’m not excited about. If you would like just answer the Q and you can leave the QX as extra credit questions.
Whoa.... I am sorry you feel that we are moving backwards. A lot of my views are constructed from a lot of different study. If I am confusing or raising questions, I guess we have read different things.
I am trying very hard to show you why God make us like he did. Why the way we turned out is a proof for the O.V., and I try to do that by showing what happened, what would have happened had things been different. I hoped that you would see a new way of thinking about things that would show you a way of answering the questions that may come up. I guess not.
I hope I can move this thing forward.
bling said:
The differences I have found between different sincere Christian groups most often are differences in how they define words:
We define the following words and subjects differently:
1. Agape Love
2. The love between child and parent when it is not agape love
3. Sin
4. Man’s purpose
5. God’s purpose in relation to man
6. Satan’s purpose
7. Sin’s purpose
Bling, I do think we are defining these things differently. After all, our views cause us to do this.
Agape Love - Christian love, i.e. A love that is not an erotic love, and it is not an emotional love. Greek for "selfless love"
Child-Parent-non-agape-love - hard to explain how that is not agape. It is very selfless, it is not necessarily emotional, although it can be.
Sin - knowingly doing wrong.
Romans 2 shows how the knowledge of good and evil written in our hearts condemns us, even though we may not have the Bible's law to guide us:
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when
Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
A law written on our hearts is the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is our accuser when we do wrong.
Romans 5
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but
sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
From Creation until Moses' Law, sin was in the world, but it was not imputed, i.e. taken into account / applied to the sinner. This is why the law was given, to make sin punishable. Even though the sins of those who lived between the time of Adam and Moses was not accounted to them because of the lack of a written law, everyone still died because of sin, for sin leads to death regardless.
By these ideas, I hope that you see that sin is punishable only when the knowledge of sin exists.
Romans 7
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
The law shows us what sin is so we are without excuse. Those who didn't have the law are not held accountable to the law. This is why we Christians are freed from the law, that we may escape the punishment.
Man's Purpose - To have fellowship with God. To be the image and likeness of God. To be as a "god" to the animals and the earth by having authority over them. To populate the earth.
1 Corinthians 1:9
God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
Genesis 1
"26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Fellowship with the son does not require the cross for those who do not know sin. The healthy do not need a doctor, but the sick, so those without sin do not need the cross, but those who do sin. Had Adam not sinned, he would have no need for the cross to have fellowship for Jesus.
God's Purpose toward man - to fulfill the duties of a father. To render love, punishment, and teach to his children. God's love includes a level of a relationship, be it small or big, it is still there.
However, if you disown God, he will disown you.
Satan's Purpose - much like man, to have a relationship with God and jobs over other Angels... But that was when he was called Lucifer. Satan abandoned that purpose and made his own, to rebel against God and get others to follow him instead of God. God uses Satan's desire to get others to follow him to God's advantage by allowing him to provide others with a clear choice. It's either Jehovah or Satan, who will you choose? The testing that Satan performs gets the answer rather fast. Satan also finds ways to make those who are guilty gain the need for a separation from God. But God turns that around, by offering those who are separated a way of knowing where they stand that they may find their way back.
Satan's story part 1
Isaiah 14
"12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’ ""
Satan's Story part 2
Revelation 12
"3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”"
Satan has become our accuser, trying to separate God from man. God uses Satan's plan to separate us from God to stir our consciences that we might return to God through faith.
1 Cor 5
"1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Satan as Lucifer had a purpose to serve God, and to love him. After he fell from that, Satan unwillingly serves a different purpose to cause those who will fall to fall and who will turn back in light of their fall. This is what Satan is willingly and unwillingly doing. He is willingly leading people away, and accidentally leading people to, God. However, more may fall than turn.
Sin's Purpose - to separate us from God.
bling said:
We may should just stick with Agape love and do them one at a time. I have tried to cover them all with the story of Adam and Eve, and made some wrong assumptions from the beginning. There are books on each of these topics.
1QX. Could Jesus allow a questionable comment to remain unquestioned?
Quote:
Patman said: . Eve mistakenly added "Do not even look at it" to the word of God. He didn't say that. He just said "Don't eat." If Adam and Eve desired to eat of the tree, If it were a sin, they didn't know it was. They only knew not to do it.
Jesus at his own discretion may answer a question or not, and correct or not. Sometimes Jesus made it a point to speak things that did not seem clear. Others, he chose to speak plainly. It depended.
2QX. Why would Eve Lie, how is that logical?
Actually it was "do not even touch it." I think Adam added that to the command for her sake. I can see Adam explaining the only rule "Eve, we can eat anything but that tree over there. If you eat it, you will die, God said so. So don't even touch it." Eve may have thought up that part herself. "If I can't eat it, perhaps it would be better if not even touch it." Where ever the idea came from, it was never commanded by God according to the account. But here is Satan, talking to Eve, trying "So is it true you can't eat of every tree?"
And Eve wanted to tell him it was true, and drive the point home. "Not only can we not eat of that tree, we can't even touch it, or else, pffffffffff," as she makes the cutting sign across her neck.
So she didn't tell Satan the exact truth, she added a little to it, perhaps she knew she was wrong, perhaps she didn't. Since we do not know, it is not worth pondering. All we know for sure is that she said something that was incorrect. She was still without sin, too. So it probably was not a lie, but only an incorrect statement.
However, even if it were a lie, she would have not known that was wrong, for she did not know what actions were good and evil. Which ever way you choose to describe it, it all points to that Eve was not held guilty to this mistake in her speech.
As Paul said, sin is only held to the sinner who has the knowledge of the law, either written in stone or written in the heart. Eve had no such law until she ate of the tree.
The only sin that man would be held to was the command of the physical act of eating the fruit of the tree that was forbidden.
3QX. There maybe no direct command by god not to lie, but God can not lie or have any thing to do with a lie or participate with liars, it is against His nature, so who and when was she taught to lie?
I do not know if she "lied", or was just elaborating, or just "oopsed".
BTW, what do you think of this story?
1 Kings 22:23
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
That's really a different discussion. But anyway, if Eve knew she were sinning in the act of lying, she would have been held accountable.
Lying isn't something you learn to do. I didn't have to learn to lie, no one taught me, I just did it one day, to hide the truth that I didn't want reviled.
4QX. Are there other messages from God given by good people saying “God said ____” that are recorded in the scripture that you think are lies?
I do not think God lies. I think the only explanation to God knowing the future and still proclaiming an event to happen that he knew wouldn't happen would require a God who could lie. I use that logic to prove that God does not know 100% of the future.
5QX. Do you think Eve is a bad person at this time, better or worse then some of God’s other messengers?
She wasn't a bad person until she fell. Satan was defiantly worst!
6QX.How can I know something in the scripture is a lie if the Spirit does not lead people to point it out later?
Nothing in scripture is a lie, it tells us the truth about what happened in it's accounts and in it's wisdom.
7QX Do you feel only the direct messages from God are true and the ones that say God told us or me are false?
I do not understand this question. Truth comes form all sorts of places, and I will always trust God's word over any other.
8QX. Do we get the entire message and all follow up messages at the same time or could things be left unwritten, but not unsaid later?
Answers are not always easy to find, sometimes we have to study for the answers. I believe we can understand all of the Bible. Sometimes the answers are spread out, sometimes they are together.
9QX. God programs animals to do certain action with certain causes could Eve at this time been programmed not to lie or felt it would be completely illogical to lie, who taught her about this subject before she became and adult, God?
Eve was not programed to be unable to sin. Freewill, or will, allows her to do as she chooses. Eve had no knowledge of sin other than the command God gave her.
10QX. Why is it never mention in the Bible that Eve lied, have we been presented with miss information?
Geez... What on earth did I say in my last post that's making you ask this? Did I say Eve lied?
patman said:
God didn't command them not to want to eat the tree. He commanded them to not eat it. Eve mistakenly added "Do not even look at it" to the word of God. He didn't say that. He just said "Don't eat." If Adam and Eve desired to eat of the tree, If it were a sin, they didn't know it was. They only knew not to do it. Today we know that even inward lust can be a sin, because we have knowledge of good and evil.
God laid out what the sin would be that would separate them. That particular sin was well thought out, because any other sin would leave man helpless, because they would not know good and evil from it. In this situation, wanting to eat the tree, and eating the tree were not the same as wanting to steal and then doing it. We know better today than to lust. Adam and eve were not commanded not to lust, but not to eat.
It is pretty much what I hold to in this post. I don't see that I said she was sinning in lying tho. I see that I said she had no knowledge of such a thing was sin.
1a Q. What prove do you have that Eve lied and did not get additional revelation about the tree, meaning she could have sinned by touching the tree and not eating?
bling, I didn't say she lied. I said she maybe made a mistake...
bling said:
We have only a small part of the garden story and certainly not all the communication between God and them, so everything given is important, Eve telling us that God told them “do not touch” is very telling at least to me:
1. Adam and/or Eve have been discussing the tree with God, which is very logical.
2. The most likely question by them from the answer given, “how close can we get without sinning?” That is the question I hear before the person gets involved in the sin.
3. That question, if asked, is the wrong question to be asking. They are greasing the skids to the sin. They should be asking how far can we go to stay away from the tree? What more should we be doing, to avoid the temptation of the tree?
4. The response God gives shows a real concern for them to avoiding contact with the tree.
5. Getting more detail information about a sin, does not help you avoid that sin.
Quote:
Patman said: . At any moment, heaven forbid, we can leave on our own will.
12QX. I do not think many people would see killing yourself as a way out of anything, except extreme pain, which very few people are ever under. If the only door is Hell who is going to take it?
Lots of people. Ever hear the saying "I'd rather burn in hell than fade away?" It's bad, but people think it. I do not promote this, I really shouldn't have said it. I just wanted to point out just how free we are.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman said: . I am not avoiding the question. You assume that A and B are the only choices. But there is a C, all of the above!
13QX to be both then your eternal close relationship with God would be dependent upon your works of obedience and God’s grace. I prefer God’s grace, because the good I do is not me but Him working in me, so He should get all the credit. What acts of obedience do you do?
I only have faith in Christ and depend on his sacrifice. I have no works to save me. And I like that too. But there was a time when faith and works went hand in hand.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman said: . He would want to make a law for them all, because they would not know it is evil to steal fruit from their neighbors tree.
14QX God made many rules at many time. Do verbal or written laws keep people from doing things that displease God at least one time? If you break one rule have you not broken all of them, so do you need more rules?
Laws are designed to prevent wrongs, but sometime sin takes advantage of a law to make you sin against it. I think God gave us all the rules we need.
If we are separated from God by sin we must have a law written in our hearts in order to both survive, and to turn back to God. Had God not given that, he would have told us in our ear what the law is. Had he tried it that way, our children would be dependent on us for the law. It is just a bad situation. It is better that the law be written in our hearts as a fail safe. God gave us a written law a little later to make our sin's accountable to us.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman said: Now that people have commands to break, they have sinned and can be separated.
Commands do not make bad behavior displeasing to God. A person may not be held accountable for doing a thing contrary to God’s nature, but that would still be bad and I feel in need of forgiveness to get back in relation with God. Commands help us understand sin, but may not be everything that separates man from God. If Adam or Eve had lied prior to eating the fruit that would have been contrary to God’s nature, something God can not be a party to.
Quote:
Patman said: No tree meant no command. No commandment to break meant no sin.
We know in earlier times God winked at the miss behavior of the gentiles, but it does not suggest that this miss behavior was not in need of a savior. This sounds very logical to me, but since Adam and Eve ate the fruit it maybe hard to prove, because you can say they had the knowledge after that, so we cannot talk about any other people. Adam and Eve are naked at the time but it is not wrong to be naked in front of animals, your spouse, and spiritual beings so that is not wrong. If we could show that Eve lied even to Satan that might support your point, but right now I do not see them doing any displeasing activity. One idea would be, suppose they had done some behavior God would not approve of, but yet God had not commanded them about it to make it sin (under your rules) so they did it in ignorance and would keep on doing it, and then God tells them this is sin and their earlier actions displeased Him. If they really wanted to please God (even if just like a child for a parent) this would make them needlessly hurt, with no promises of this act being forgotten or forgiven by God because it was not a sin. Sin is the only acts that are mentioned as being forgiven and forgotten.
15QX Would you rather have your actions that displease God called sin (forgiven and totally forgotten) or not be called sin and remembered by God? A rose by any other name is still a rose.
I don't know what all this means. I only wanted to contrast why the tree is the perfect way for man to leave God. I think any other way would have resulted in a very bad situation for us all, and all our evil would be multiplied forever.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman asked; I.E. Lets pretend that there was no tree. All Adam and Eve and anyone who came after them had to do is just say "Yes, I love God" or "No, I do not love God." What would have happened if that had been the case?
I am beginning to see a problem with our understand I did not realize before:
You seem to be saying (correct me please) that the tree was man’s choice: to not love God, to hate God, to be rebellious, to say; “I want out”, to make the choice to follow Satan, and/or something like that. I also assume you feel that is what Adam and Eve thought-out and rebelled, teamed up with Satan and/ or took their only way out. They were depressed, up set with the situation, wanting to die, or liked Satan’s plain.
Q1b… Do you find any scripture support for their motive or thinking in this sin, being their wanting to take the “open door”?
You were right about what I think about the tree and it's purpose EXCEPT this: "I also assume you feel that is what Adam and Eve thought-out and rebelled, teamed up with Satan and/ or took their only way out. They were depressed, up set with the situation, wanting to die, or liked Satan’s plain."
The Genesis story tells us that Eve wanted the wisdom that came from eating the tree. She gave it to Adam and Adam headed her voice and ate. They had their reasons for eating. They ignored the Death, and probably thought God was lying about that.
The entire point of the Bible is God wishes for us to follow him, and it is our choice. The garden is no different.
QX.. Pat man you stated one time Satan might have tricked God into letting him tempt Adam and Eve; do you really think Satan understands man better then God or our God can be tricked by Satan?
Did I say God was tricked? Did I use that word, or is that how you read me? Eve was tricked, Adam was too. God isn't a fool that he can be tricked. He knows what Satan is up to.
I was trying to say that, like Job, Satan may have asked God permission to tempt Man. God HOPED man would pass the test.
bling said:
This sin for Adam and Eve was made as easy as any first sin for any of us. The reason they sinned was they lacked agape love and the indwelling Spirit. They lacked agape love, for the reasons I stated before the problems with the Garden:
1. Adam and Eve must maintain their eternal close relationship with God by obedience, that has never happened (except Christ) and God can and did know that. Outside the Garden they will dependent on God’s mercy for an eternal relationship.
2. In the Garden humans can not experience forgiveness, “ he who is forgiven of much loves much” since they have not sinned.
3. In the garden there are no needy people (those Adam can help without being helped directly in return) God is providing for all the needs of humans, His agape love is being showered on them, but they can’t be faithful sheep in the example of Matt. 25: 31-46.
4. It seems to work best to love first then obey not as Adam and Eve were asked to do, although I do believe you gain love with obedience (that’s another subject)
5. Adam and Eve can not see the full extent of God’s love without the cross. Agape love is felt in being forgiven of much (for humans) Luke 7: 36-50?
6. Adam and Eve did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is Huge! (Another discussion topic)
7. Out side the garden there is wisdom gained in the struggle of laboring, the fruits of labor have more value and thus these fruits become your gift to others and God that the garden could not provide you. You can sacrifice. (another subject)
Bling, what do you mean by "problems with the garden?" Do you think the Garden concept was a bad idea because man wasn't sinning? With the implications of your 7 points, you seem to believe that we were setup to fail in the garden that we might have grace instead?
Q2…Adam may have loved Eve, but did he agape love Eve or did He at any time agape love God, or did he love with at least some self interest?
Adam's selfless love was fully possible in the Garden. Despite the wisdom he would have been benefited and that he would have desired, he could have selflessly gave that up to follow God's one command. Had Adam never ate, he would forever show his Agape love by passing up the fruit. The fruit was desirable, but out of selflessness, Adam's agape love would magnify God. But Adam didn't do that. He selfishly ate.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman said: . He didn't create man to sin, he just knew it COULD happen, and out of love, he had a plan!
I am beginning to understand you to be saying, “God does not allow sin, but does allow the possibility of sin.”
This goes back to the same idea about Satan and God allowing him to roam the earth, at first you said God did not allow Satan to do this and did not have the power at this time to put him away. After pointing out Knight’s and lion’s answer of yes God could, you did seem to change, but Knight and lion went on to talk about the purpose of Satan for all of us. You may want to lesson again to the tape. I agree with what they said, but think there is much more which they may or may not agree to. The point is, sin and Satan have a lot of the same purposes.
No No No. I said it was not his God given purpose to do all that. And I added, in agreement to Knight, that God uses Satan to a different point than originally planned.
Q3.What good purpose for good people do you see for Satan now?
I guess I just don't think about Satan in regards as being good for good people. Satan is Evil. I can not conceive of a way that He is good for good people, or that he has good purposes for good people. I can't wrap my brain around a possibility right now. Perhaps I will after I think about it for 100000 years, but for now, I cant think of how Satan can have a good purpose for good people.... Well, other than being happy to see Justice come to him.
bling said:
Now if I am right about what you said “God does not allow sin, but does allow the possibility of sin.” I don’t know if that can be philosophically defended? Would God not understand enough about man to know given the possibility man will sin, everyone has. With all Adam and Eve lacked they would certainly sin over time. This is to philosophical a question, so lets not get into it and address, have only the possibility of sin.
I do not believe that “God does not allow sin, but does allow the possibility of sin.” I believe God did not create us to sin, but allows that if we wish to sin, he will allow it to a point, and will judge us for it.
16QX.Is the Bible telling us everyone in the future will sin at least once?
No. There are many humans who were innocent when they died. The countless abortions for example, none of those people sinned when they died. The Bible does not say everyone is going to sin. What about Adults who have yet to die? They will sin, the bible seems clear that apart from Christ, none are righteous. All man have the flesh and the knowledge of sin, and sooner or later will sin. Future knowledge is not required to know this. And this is a result of the fall, not a requirement for Adam and Even. Because Adam and Eve fell, Adults in the flesh will eventually sin.
bling said:
Let us stick with the Garden: If the tree was ugly, smelled bad, had thorns around it and there was no Satan around to convince Eve, with a lie that She would be like God and not die, would Adam and Eve sinned, I do not think so. They had no reason to want to leave the Garden, God was the best parent you could have, they were raised (programmed) as good as you can get by God, they had no one calling God a liar so no lie to believe, they had no need for knowledge of good and evil, they had stuff to do and God was a great companion. I am sure from their reaction after the fall they loved God (but not agape love for God), all the time. Allowing the possibility of sinning today means everyone will sin at least once and allowing the possibility to sin in the Garden and Satan the liar with enough time and Adam and Eve will sin, which is very logical from what we can know about people, Satan, and time.
How are Adam and Eve going to feel about God? Would it not be very similar to children of extremely wealthy parents that provide everything for there children and the parents love them very much. The problem is the kids can very logically feel the parents are doing these things to fulfill their needs as parents which may be true of most parents. Adam and Eve would feel God is doing all this because he wants to feel good about Himself as a parent. They are being loved like all the products of the creator. That type of love felt to be shown to Adam and Eve will not produce agape love back to God, in fact the love Adam and Eve can have for each other, because there is no perceived obligation between them it be freely exchanged could easily be greater then their love for God.
Q4…How can God get around this problem? How does He get around this same issue with us?
Love.
bling said:
Quote:
Patman said: . Otherwise, God created us in such a way that it would be impossible to love him had we not sinned. That is where I see that thought process taking us. And that is why I reject it.
Q5.. If the thought process takes us to the truth will you except it?
Will you? The process of thought be it wrong thinking, or right, can lead us to truth in a round about way. So sure. But I reject that sin is a requirement to love. My explanation of the selfless act of denying the tree shows that agape love existed before sin from Adam to God pretty well.
bling said:
God did not want some things to happen like Christ on the cross, or Satan on earth with man, innocent people being hurt, and man sinning, but if the objective is great enough God will quench His desires and do all it takes to fulfill the objective.
Q6…Do you agree that an agape love relationship is what God is wanting?
Perhaps. There are different loves that The bible uses. Friendship love is a good one that God would want too.
Q7…Could you go through all the short comings of the Garden relating to agape love and tell me how Adam and Eve could have over come those short comings to develop agape love for God and others?
I did this above. Adam and Eve, by selflessly denying the advantages of the tree, would show selfless love to God by following his command and denying their desires.
Q7 a Adam and Eve must maintain their eternal close relationship with God by obedience, how do they see God’s agape love in that?
God desires to have Adam and Eve as his forever. The tree is a selfless way for God to give them away to not be his. This is a powerful showing of Agape love.
Q7b In the Garden humans can not experience forgiveness (agape love), “ he who is forgiven of much loves much” since they have not sinned at all, this will not apply how can they share in this promises?.
A sinless being will not experience this aspect of forgiveness. I do not agree that forgiveness is a requirement for Agape love, it is simply an avenue to it. One of many built into the garden that can be reached without sin, a fall, and grace.
Q7c. In the garden there are no needy people (those Adam can help without being helped directly in return) God is providing for all the needs of humans, His agape love is being showered on them, but they can’t be faithful sheep in the example of Matt. 25: 31-46 how can they become righteous sheep?
This question assumes a world with NO sinners. Everyone would be righteous in that they do not sin. By not sinning, they are doing everything described in Matthew 25 and more. So what if there wasn't a sinner to be nice to, they were being good to each other by not sinning. They are needy in that they need each other not to sin. And they are needy in that they need each other's fellowship. And God's fellowship.
Q7d. It seems to work best to love first then obey not as Adam and Eve were asked to do, so what scripture do we have to show the opposite would happen?
Jesus said, "if you love me, you will obey my word." This was Adam's test. "Do you love me Adam?" Had adam said yes, he would have obeyed.
Q7e. Adam and Eve can not see the full extent of God’s love without the cross. Agape love is felt in being forgiven of much (for humans) Luke 7: 36-50, so how can they see the full agape love of God for them?
God could tell them what he would do for them, and they would be amazed. They couldn't experience that first hand. And I think they would have been better for it.
Q7f. Adam and Eve did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is Huge! What makes up for that in the garden that would be a 24 hour equal?
To my knowledge, the Spirit is in Christians. He was not pored out before. Many people made it without the indwelling. It is wonderful to have the Spirit, Adam and Eve had the full Godhead there with them! I think that's pretty good!
Q7g. Out side the garden there is wisdom gained in the struggle of laboring, the fruits of labor have more value and thus these fruits become your gift to others and God that the garden could not provide you. How can Adam and Eve sacrifice something they earned?
Adam and Eve worked the garden too. There would be a lot to their life had they not sinned.
18QX. There is no reason to go into a long story again about what would happen if there was not a tree, but let me ask you what would your tree have been if you were in the Garden?
I agree with God. Let them have all the food they need, work the garden, and love me by being selfless in denying the tree I put there to cause a divide between us that would give them wisdom to make it without me, and pre-plan for salvation through my son's death.
bling said:
After I completed this, I read your post again. I originally thought the little story about removing the possibility of sin from Adam and Eve was bizarre, but I do see were you are coming from.
YOUR METHOD- Remove sinning from man by removing the rules and allowing humans to behave unchecked. As you and all of us can see: that is chaos, which is a hell on earth, those people would not pleasing God even if they did not “sin”.
MY IDEA ON A GARDEN WITHOUT SIN: Remove Satan, remove the tree, make actions that please God instinctive, provide all the knowledge and logic needed to do good and avoid bad, and provide all the needs of humans so they will not covet. My God can easily do this, I can see how He gave some animals instinctive knowledge not to hurt their own specie. How, He gave us different feelings with different degrees of strength. He has shown a tremendous knowledge of man, sin, love, Satan, heaven and Himself.
This is also the way I picture Heaven, since it was designed before man it had to take all this into consideration, the rule for us will be to do only those things that please God.
That story should be bizarre. That is why God didn't do it that way. And he wouldn't do it your way either because that takes away freedom to love God.
bling said:
The problem with creating this type Garden is the same problem with the Garden you can not develop agape love, you can have a very great wonderful child type love for a parent, but not agape love. We need to be on earth to develop at least some agape love and then we can really be in that eternal agape loving relationship with God.
Q8. What is your heaven like and how does it differ from my ideas?
Heaven is wonderful. But there are many wars in heaven, there are people asking God to avenge them, Satan comes up from time to time to constantly accuse us. It's going to change tho, God will recreate heaven and earth.
The new Heaven and Earth will be a place for those who have love and love God. Guided by love, we will do that which is right.
Shewwww. We gotta shorten the next one
goodnight bling.
-Patman
P.S. I didn't proof read this. Hope it all makes since.
