Hi everyone,
Patman: this verse is symbolic in nature. How else can you symbolize Christ? A slain lamb!
But Jesus didn't appear "as if slain" when he appeared to the disciples after the resurrection, there are many pictures of Christ, none of which involve him appearing as slain, and even when he appears as a lamb, appearing as slain does not seem to be necessarily required. Yet he will indeed appear in that way, which does seem to show that Christ's dying as a lamb had a timeless aspect.
Lee: Jesus says "truly, truly" about Peter's denial, so how can this be possibly wrong? This is Jesus' way of saying this is quite firm, and quite solemn. Then, while Peter is being reminded of his denial, Jesus confirms Peter's statement "you know all things" with another prediction about Peter's future! Again saying, "truly, truly."
Patman: The logic seems to imply that there is no other possible way for Jesus to know, and be positive, that the said events would occure with out future knowledge. It is simply a faulty conclusion.
Yes, but why is my conclusion incorrect here? We cannot just quote some other verse, and not deal with this one.
But I need to also address the verse you mentioned, while waiting for your response about Peter...
Please notice that God actually expected one thing to happen, but something else happened instead [Isaiah 5:3,4].
Isaiah 5:4 What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?
God is not asking for advice on gardening!
ISA 5:5 Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard...
God doesn't wait for their opinion! He tells us what more he could do, in fact. Thus I think we should conclude from this that good fruit in peoples' lives does not come from pleasant circumstances:
HEB 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
This vineyard will be restored, too, and it will even bear good fruit:
ISA 27:6 In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.
So then God's expectation of good fruit from this vineyard will not be disappointed.
Patman: ... ever since Abraham, hundreds of years before, God said that this people would be His people, and yet, recorded time and time again in the OT, they were anything but.
But this statement also will be fulfilled:
Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Patman: Jonah is another great example of the Open View. God clearly stated that they had 40 days. Yet, because of their repenting, God retracted his statement and they lived many years beyond the original 40 days. If God knew the outcome, he would have not lied.
Well, then I have some questions...
Why didn't God destroy the Ninevites right away, if that was his plan?
Why did God send Jonah, and spoil his plan?
How can we trust God, if he can take action, and spoil his own plan himself?
How can we say that God didn't lie to the Ninevites, if he threatened unconditional destruction, yet he knew it might not happen?
Why did Jonah seem to have a better grasp of the situation than God did? He thought the Ninevites would probably repent, and thus he ran.
Why did the Ninevites seem to know better than God did? They thought they could repent, and God, apparently, did not.
Why didn't God keep the Ninevites from repenting after Jonah preached to them, like he did with the sons of Eli (1 Sam. 2:25) and with Amaziah (2 Chr. 25:16)?
Now we have to question God's unconditional promises, for the situation may change, and God may have to change his plan.
Also, God may act in a way that spoils his plan, not only may the situation change, and cause a change of plan, but God may do something that wrecks his own plan.
And we also need not always follow God's counsel, for another choice may turn out better, even from his perspective. Only Scripture says differently...
Jesus is God. Yet, as God, he admints to his inability to forsee the last day. This is an big hole in power as God, don't you think?
Not if the Father knows what Jesus (at this time) didn't know. Yet again, with Peter after the resurrection, Jesus confirms that he "knows all things" (Jn. 21:17), which must include the date of his return. I do believe Jesus did not have all factual knowledge while on earth, before his death and resurrection.
This is the mystical answer I was speaking of. And unrelated material to back it up. Having patience REQUIRES time.
So does hope! Is God hoping about all that we hope for, though? Well, no, he is not. Will he always be hoping for some best outcome, implying a possible result that is less than the best? Well, no, again.
And if the NIV translation of 1 Tim. 1:16 is correct, God has "unlimited patience for those who believe," again implying timelessness, for unlimited patience is not needed for time-limited sin. And we can't say this patience is just theoretically available for as long as needed, no, God "shows" it, which again implies a timeless aspect, for unlimited patience would take an infinite amount of time to show someone.
Lee: Surely you don't believe there was a real voice we could have heard, with sound waves traveling through air, though! Before air was created.
Patman: That's a little bold, I think. If you wish to disagree with the biblical account of creation, I do not understand why I would debate you on biblical matters.
Then you do believe that there was an actual voice, and sound waves in real air before creation? That is what seems rather strained to me. Surely the intent is to convey God initiating, and creating out of nothing.
Patman: The Bible says he was doing other things, in sequential order. For example, he was hovering.
But over the earth, which implies space, which allows for time then.
According to other verses, he was planning salvation before earth was created too.
Actually, I think the "point mode" of the verbs is used, which refers to a single moment, not to a process, a participle such as "planning" is never used of God's counsel before creation, rather "He chose us" (Eph. 1:4), "He planned" (Heb. 11:40). These distinctions are important! And can indicate something...
Lee: No, I believe he just knows it. And I do believe your alternative is worse! For if God is not in control of evil, how is that better, if real harm (the warfare worldview) can come to those who love him, and are called according to his purpose?
Patman: I will admit that if God desired control everything, he could. But his control would not include evil actions. Which proves he does not control it all! God can use evil to his advantage, but without causing it.
Well, this does not answer my objection, this is instead stating your conclusion. Why is it better if real harm can come? And how can we explain verses that tell us we need not fear, for no harm will come to those who trust in him? Ps. 91, for example, and here is another:
Psalm 56:11 ... in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?
Lee: ... if people have real authority apart from God, then Jesus does not yet have all authority, but he said (Mt. 28:18) that he did.
JHodgeIII: Open Viewers understand that God has the ability to delegate authority, though He maintains being the supreme authority (see John 19:10 for a clear example of this).
But this means Jesus has all authority only if those he delegates authority to all do his will! But the Open View teaches that they don't.
JHodgeIII: ... did the omnipotent Jesus always have "all authority" or was He given "all authority" at a given time in history?
That's a good question! I believe when Jesus was on earth, he was dependent on the Father's power, in some ways, just as he was dependent on the Father's knowledge. After the resurrection, he resumed these divine attributes, he was given them, they were restored to him by the Father.
Godrulz: God did not know the actuality/certainty/experience of evil from eternity past. When evil was introduced, then and only then, was He grieved instead of experiencing a 'very good' creation. He knew of the inherent possibility of evil before creation and already formulated a contingency plan of redemption before the creation of the world.
Then sin is purely and only regrettable? If so, then how could God show his mercy? This was, it would seem, a purpose God had:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Blessings,
Lee