BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

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Delmar

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elected4ever said:
Nonsense and if you or anyone else subscribes to such nonsense then I accuse you and them of willful ignorants at the very least. It is not true. It is something you just prefer to believe and it has no foundation. Show me one post where Zman ever made a statement like that.It is and it is a product of your imagination. You perceive it to be true because of your mindset.Just tell me this. Where in the Bible does God change His character?
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I know of no open theist who believes that God's character changes. This is a false accusation that you need to repent of!
Where in the Bible is God ever unjust?
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I know of no open theist who believes that God is not just! This too is a false accusation that you need to repent of!
Where in the Bible does God's foreknowledge prevent choice?
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Where in the Bible does it tell you not to apply logic?
 
JoyfulRook

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Z Man said:
Let me get this straight OV'ers, cause I'm a little confused here. You all agree with the following Scripture:

Job 1:20-22
Job stood up and tore his robe in grief. Then he shaved his head and fell to the ground before God. He said, "I came naked from my mother's womb, and I will be stripped of everything when I die. The LORD gave me everything I had, and the LORD has taken it away. Praise the name of the LORD!" In all of this, Job DID NOT SIN by blaming God.

Yet you all get on my case for saying that it's ok to say God ordained the death of people, whether it be your son or daughter?
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Is this guy as stupid as he seems, or is he intentionally being a knucklehead?
 
JoyfulRook

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Z Man said:
Phew.. ok Turbo.. I think I can respond now. Man.. ha.. that was funny though.

Dude, are you serious? In the verse, Job says, ""I came naked from my mother's womb, and I will be stripped of everything when I die. The LORD gave me everything I had, and the LORD has taken it away. Praise the name of the LORD!" He said the Lord had taken away everything Job had, including his children. He blamed God for everything he just went through; the total lost of all he had. That's what Job did. That's what Job said. A retard would understand that.

Then the writer of Job wanted to make it clear that in blaming God for taking away everything he had, Job was not sinning with his lips. Job did not charge God for wrong doing by blaming Him for killing his children. That is the simple meaning of this verse.

Man, I swear, I really and truly believe that you OV'ers make this crap up as you go along. It's funny though! :D
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Hmm. I think there is a word for these kinds of posts.

Pathetic.
 
Ecumenicist

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Dread Helm said:
Is this guy as stupid as he seems, or is he intentionally being a knucklehead?
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The quote says that God gave the man his family, and then God took them away.

Almost looks like another scriptural conflict. Job acknowledged that God took his
children away, and yet he did not blame God for doing so.

Once again, what's the larger understanding that accomodates both sides of the
apparent conflict?

Dave
 
CRASH

CRASH

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Stir it up

Stir it up

Dave Miller said:
Whoa, whoa, lets back off a little and think about this...

The question is whether God knows our future, not necessarily the whole Calvinist
thing wadded up together.

Did God know that the child would be burned, in your example? Yes, He did. Did
God allow it to happen? Yes He did, to do otherwise would be to interfere with our
freewill choice to make our own mistakes. That's the choice we made in the garden,
and God loves us enough to respect our choice. That, my friend, is known as
covenant, God's freewill choice to constrain God's self in relationship / promise with
humanity.

Was God happy about the child being hurt? No, of course not. Will God use it to God's
glory, even our mistakes, even our weaknesses? Yes, of course God will. And its God's
perfect foreknowledge that allows God's Glory to shine through even the worst
circumstances. Our hope is in this: even though bad things happen, God has ultimate
control, and God will make it right, that's God's plan, and God's application of God's
perfect foreknowledge.

Dave
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Looks like I caused no small stir here. Sorry Knight but this is a fundamental part of BRX debate. If you want to move all this to another thread - sounds good to me.

Ok, Dave we agree on everything except the "foreknowledge" part. The problem is that many on "your side" believe God has decreed all events before the foundation of the world, Pre-ordained everything - including heinous evil which therefore makes him the author of, and complicent with, all evil. That is blasphamous and unfortunatly there are many like Z-man promoting this non-biblical heresy that we are God's evil robots which drives many more away from the Lord of Glory!
Regarding forknowledge, I think your 2 views as I understand them are mutually exclusive. What is the mechanism by whch God knows all the details of the future actions of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of free-will agents. And please don't say His ways are higher.... Remember, God's ways are higher not lower.
Thanks.
 
Ecumenicist

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CRASH said:
Looks like I caused no small stir here. Sorry Knight but this is a fundamental part of BRX debate. If you want to move all this to another thread - sounds good to me.

Ok, Dave we agree on everything except the "foreknowledge" part. The problem is that many on "your side" believe God has decreed all events before the foundation of the world, Pre-ordained everything - including heinous evil which therefore makes him the author of, and complicent with, all evil. That is blasphamous and unfortunatly there are many like Z-man promoting this non-biblical heresy that we are God's evil robots which drives many more away from the Lord of Glory!
Regarding forknowledge, I think your 2 views as I understand them are mutually exclusive. What is the mechanism by whch God knows all the details of the future actions of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of free-will agents. And please don't say His ways are higher.... Remember, God's ways are higher not lower.
Thanks.
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You want me to describe the mechanism that God uses for knowing all things, and then
say I can't defer to God's omniscience? God's omniscence is the cornerstone of the CV
premise, and its not just Greek btw, there's plenty of pre-Greek scripture pointing to
this understanding, as Sam points out very well.

Regarding the Zman "blasphemy," I think I can understand the similarities between
an understanding that says "God allows it" and "God ordains it." I don't think the
word "ordain" is a particularly good word to use in the description, however.

Perhaps you'd like to comment on Bob Enyart's "blasphemy" of suggesting the possibility
that Jesus Christ could have been wrong, in any way?

Dave
 
JoyfulRook

JoyfulRook

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Dave Miller said:
Almost looks like another scriptural conflict. Job acknowledged that God took his
children away, and yet he did not blame God for doing so.
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I find it interesting that in the King James it says:
Job 1:22
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Wasn't it Elihu who said:
Job 34:1, 10-12
Furthermore Elihu answered and said, Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me... Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
 
Clete

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I thought this thread was supposed to be for discussion of the Battle Royale. You guys are so far off topic, it's rediculous. One of you needs to start a new thread and move this discussion there.
 
1Way

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Clete, I just read Dave's post and he is talking about God's forknowledge and one of Bob Enyart's views about that issue. Although he's currently objecting to formal argumenation (what should be allowed in such a debate, like omniscience or not), it's about God's foreknowledge. Maybe I'm missing something...
 
1Way

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Dave,

As to your comment to Crash about him not wanting to allow YOU to defer to God’s power as to the mechanism for His foreknowledge. Man are you el wrongo. It is the bible’s teaching that God’s mechanism for taking care of things yet future is because of His power to bring them to pass, as opposed to absolutely settled forknowledge. And that’s right, that explaination is at the heart of Open Theism, whereas at the heart of the closed view, is exhaustive foreknowledge instead.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.
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So yes, God’s power is central to His Foreknowledge. But don’t forget, sometimes God does NOT do what He said or thought He would do. Jer 18 1-10.
 
elected4ever

elected4ever

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CRASH said:
Looks like I caused no small stir here. Sorry Knight but this is a fundamental part of BRX debate. If you want to move all this to another thread - sounds good to me.

Ok, Dave we agree on everything except the "foreknowledge" part. The problem is that many on "your side" believe God has decreed all events before the foundation of the world, Pre-ordained everything - including heinous evil which therefore makes him the author of, and complicent with, all evil. That is blasphamous and unfortunatly there are many like Z-man promoting this non-biblical heresy that we are God's evil robots which drives many more away from the Lord of Glory!
Regarding forknowledge, I think your 2 views as I understand them are mutually exclusive. What is the mechanism by whch God knows all the details of the future actions of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of free-will agents. And please don't say His ways are higher.... Remember, God's ways are higher not lower.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Micah 2:1 *¶Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
2 *And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.
3 *Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
 
Clete

Clete

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1Way said:
Clete, I just read Dave's post and he is talking about God's forknowledge and one of Bob Enyart's views about that issue. Although he's currently objecting to formal argumenation (what should be allowed in such a debate, like omniscience or not), it's about God's foreknowledge. Maybe I'm missing something...
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The foreknowledge stuff is cool, it's all the discussion about Job and how God is a murderer crap that needs to go somewhere else.
 
Poly

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A good thread was started by drb last night.... Does God Repent? This might be a good place to take the more off topic stuff.

Also somebody may want to start a new thread on the subject of Job. I think this would be really interesting. :)
 
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