BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[*Acts9_12Out*]

ZMan,

You said,

Like it or not, Judas DID NOT repent. So Bob's fantasy was pointless. It's an argument that leads to nowhere. If we are to stick to Scripture, we read perfectly clear that Judas did what he did to fulfill Scripture. Bob seems to have a hard time with the truth and fantasizes about what 'could of' happened. His story of Judas's repentence did nothing but make the water murky. He added confusion to the debate that does not need to be there.

Are you serious? Judas did what he did to fulfill Scripture? Since Bob has addressed this topic from the perspective of God's nature (Loving, Relational, etc...), I will again address the issue of Judas using God's Word.

First off, Judas was a believer who fell away. Read the context of Matthew 13 and John 2. Jesus is speaking to His disciples (Judas was there!). Jesus says that Judas is a believer...

Matthew 13
13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

John 2
2:11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

If God foreordained Judas to betray Jesus Christ, how can this be reconciled with other Scripture? Judas’s actions seem to have been ordained by God because they are prophesied. But, the betrayal of Christ was never foretold in the prophets.

If the betrayal of Christ by Judas was foreknown and foreordained, how could Matthew 26:24 be true?

Matthew 26
24 “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Judas would have had no choice. Therefore, God would have predestined a man to damnation. I know John Calvin taught this idea, but I must ask, “Does God do evil that good may come?” James 1:13-17 says God doesn’t even tempt men with evil let alone predestine them to do it.

What does, “That it might be fulfilled,” mean?

Matthew 2
15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.” (What OT Scripture?)

Notice, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1.

Hosea 11
11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. ”

Matthew 2:15 is a supposed “fulfillment” of Hosea 11:1. However, Hosea 11:1 does not refer to Christ, but rather the nation of Israel. These are not “fulfillments” of prophecy, but rather illustrations. Matthew offers another supposed “fulfillment” of prophecy. Here, Matthew shows us another illustration.

Matthew 1
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Was the Immanuel prophecy actually fulfilled? Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14,

Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Did this actually come to pass? Let’s take a look. Who was the promise made to?

Isaiah 7
10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
11 "Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above."
12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!"
13 Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

The Lord was to give Ahaz a sign. “Immanuel” was not a sign to Ahaz, but rather, an illustration applied to the Christ Child. Again, this was not an actual fulfillment since Ahaz did not receive the sign.

Now, back to Judas… Gospel Scripture to consider:

Matthew 27
9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced,
10 and gave them for the potter’s field, as the LORD directed me.”

Guess what? There is no Jeremiah passage. We do have, Zechariah 11:12-13

Zecheriah 11
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter.

Now, I ask, how does this refer specifically to Judas? It doesn’t. Let's look at a few more examples...

John 13
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’”

Most attempt to offer Psalm 41:9 as a proof text.

Psalm 41
9 “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.”

Many believe this refers to Judas. Many believe this is a specific “predictive prophecy” concerning Judas. Let’s take a look at what David has to say…

In Ps 41:4-10 David’s prayer had been one for healing after confessing his sin (v. 4). However, he lamented the fact that his enemies took advantage of his condition. Wanting him to die (v. 5), they feigned friendship while slandering him (v. 6), saying that he would never survive (vv. 7-8). Even his trusted friend betrayed (lifted up his heel against) him (v. 9). These words, of course, were quoted by Jesus concerning Judas (John 13:18). But here David had in mind the treachery of his friend Ahithophel, who betrayed him, and then hanged himself (2 Sam. 16:20-17:3, 23).

David was not referring to Judas!!

Now, here’s another passage attributed to Judas.

John 17
12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Unfortunately, no OT Scripture says this.

Now here is some Scripture in Acts to consider:

Acts 1
16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled (What Scripture?), which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus
17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

David didn’t say this about Judas. He said it about his “own familiar friend” Ahithophel.

Psa 41:9 “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.”

These scriptures were fulfilled in the sense of illustration by Judas.

Acts 1
20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’

The book of Psalms does not say that about Judas.

Psalm 109
8 Let his days be few, And let another take his office.

Psalm 6
25 Let their dwelling place be desolate; Let no one live in their tents.

Peter in Acts 1 said that David prophesied of Judas. But when did David discuss Judas Iscariot? Certainly he did not refer to him directly or name him. The Psalms often anticipate Christ. Likewise the enemies of the royal psalmist became the enemies of the Messiah. Therefore, someone was predicted in Psalms 69:25 and 109:8. Both of these Psalms are royal imprecatory psalms, but the prophecy is very general. Acts 1:20 applies them to Judas. These are not specific “predictive prophecies,” but rather, illustrations of OT examples.

Zman, do you realize that Judas did nothing to "fulfill" Scripture? Judas was not predestined before the foundation of the world or else Matthew 26:24 could never be true. Judas freely chose to betray Christ, and when he did, the NT authors found illustrations from the OT that were similar to Judas' actions and applied them to Judas. God did not need, let alone predestine Judas, to betray Christ...

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[drbrumley]

ZMan,

You said,



Are you serious? Judas did what he did to fulfill Scripture? Since Bob has addressed this topic from the perspective of God's nature (Loving, Relational, etc...), I will again address the issue of Judas using God's Word.

First off, Judas was a believer who fell away. Read the context of Matthew 13 and John 2. Jesus is speaking to His disciples (Judas was there!). Jesus says that Judas is a believer...

If God foreordained Judas to betray Jesus Christ, how can this be reconciled with other Scripture? Judas’s actions seem to have been ordained by God because they are prophesied. But, the betrayal of Christ was never foretold in the prophets.

If the betrayal of Christ by Judas was foreknown and foreordained, how could Matthew 26:24 be true?

Judas would have had no choice. Therefore, God would have predestined a man to damnation. I know John Calvin taught this idea, but I must ask, “Does God do evil that good may come?” James 1:13-17 says God doesn’t even tempt men with evil let alone predestine them to do it.

What does, “That it might be fulfilled,” mean?

Notice, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1.

Matthew 2:15 is a supposed “fulfillment” of Hosea 11:1. However, Hosea 11:1 does not refer to Christ, but rather the nation of Israel. These are not “fulfillments” of prophecy, but rather illustrations. Matthew offers another supposed “fulfillment” of prophecy. Here, Matthew shows us another illustration.

Was the Immanuel prophecy actually fulfilled? Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14,


Did this actually come to pass? Let’s take a look. Who was the promise made to?

The Lord was to give Ahaz a sign. “Immanuel” was not a sign to Ahaz, but rather, an illustration applied to the Christ Child. Again, this was not an actual fulfillment since Ahaz did not receive the sign.

Now, back to Judas… Gospel Scripture to consider:

Guess what? There is no Jeremiah passage. We do have, Zechariah 11:12-13

Now, I ask, how does this refer specifically to Judas? It doesn’t. Let's look at a few more examples...

Most attempt to offer Psalm 41:9 as a proof text.

Many believe this refers to Judas. Many believe this is a specific “predictive prophecy” concerning Judas. Let’s take a look at what David has to say…

In Ps 41:4-10 David’s prayer had been one for healing after confessing his sin (v. 4). However, he lamented the fact that his enemies took advantage of his condition. Wanting him to die (v. 5), they feigned friendship while slandering him (v. 6), saying that he would never survive (vv. 7-8). Even his trusted friend betrayed (lifted up his heel against) him (v. 9). These words, of course, were quoted by Jesus concerning Judas (John 13:18). But here David had in mind the treachery of his friend Ahithophel, who betrayed him, and then hanged himself (2 Sam. 16:20-17:3, 23).

David was not referring to Judas!!

Now, here’s another passage attributed to Judas.

Unfortunately, no OT Scripture says this.

Now here is some Scripture in Acts to consider:

David didn’t say this about Judas. He said it about his “own familiar friend” Ahithophel.

These scriptures were fulfilled in the sense of illustration by Judas.

The book of Psalms does not say that about Judas.

Peter in Acts 1 said that David prophesied of Judas. But when did David discuss Judas Iscariot? Certainly he did not refer to him directly or name him. The Psalms often anticipate Christ. Likewise the enemies of the royal psalmist became the enemies of the Messiah. Therefore, someone was predicted in Psalms 69:25 and 109:8. Both of these Psalms are royal imprecatory psalms, but the prophecy is very general. Acts 1:20 applies them to Judas. These are not specific “predictive prophecies,” but rather, illustrations of OT examples.

Zman, do you realize that Judas did nothing to "fulfill" Scripture? Judas was not predestined before the foundation of the world or else Matthew 26:24 could never be true. Judas freely chose to betray Christ, and when he did, the NT authors found illustrations from the OT that were similar to Judas' actions and applied them to Judas. God did not need, let alone predestine Judas, to betray Christ...

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

AMEN

 

[drbrumley]

Acts, I thank God for you. That was inspiring. I came many moons ago to exactly what you said but I cannot put them into words.

 

[kmoney]

Bob's latest post has me dumbfounded! I literally don't know what to say except that the argument was basically perfect!
Boy am I glad I'm not Dr. Lamerson!

His post was good, but I think SM still has some decent points that Bob hasn't completely responded to yet. One thing that did interest me was the part about predictive vs. non prophecies. I have not really heard much teaching on that before.

 

[Z Man]

Interesting.

Tell me, was Nineveh's repentance ordained by God Himself before the foundation of the world?

Your question is irrelevant (unless you can prove otherwise by getting to the point).

Nineveh was a sinful city. God ordained that Jonah go there to relay God's threat of their destruction. The city repents. God does not destroy them. God is glorified. Everything happened exactly the way God intended it to.

 

[Z Man]

This is a quote from Billygoat, in the Battle Royal Critique thread:

Everything that happens, even the horrible evil things, little children being tortured, are all God's will?? Unbelievable!! Not the God of Scripture!

If God's will was to have his own Son crucified, what makes you think that sinful human beings are not worthy of a similar, if not worse, demise?

 

[Z Man]

ZMan,

You said,



Are you serious? Judas did what he did to fulfill Scripture? Since Bob has addressed this topic from the perspective of God's nature (Loving, Relational, etc...), I will again address the issue of Judas using God's Word.

First off, Judas was a believer who fell away. Read the context of Matthew 13 and John 2. Jesus is speaking to His disciples (Judas was there!). Jesus says that Judas is a believer...

If God foreordained Judas to betray Jesus Christ, how can this be reconciled with other Scripture? Judas’s actions seem to have been ordained by God because they are prophesied. But, the betrayal of Christ was never foretold in the prophets.

If the betrayal of Christ by Judas was foreknown and foreordained, how could Matthew 26:24 be true?

Judas would have had no choice. Therefore, God would have predestined a man to damnation. I know John Calvin taught this idea, but I must ask, “Does God do evil that good may come?” James 1:13-17 says God doesn’t even tempt men with evil let alone predestine them to do it.

What does, “That it might be fulfilled,” mean?

Notice, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1.

Matthew 2:15 is a supposed “fulfillment” of Hosea 11:1. However, Hosea 11:1 does not refer to Christ, but rather the nation of Israel. These are not “fulfillments” of prophecy, but rather illustrations. Matthew offers another supposed “fulfillment” of prophecy. Here, Matthew shows us another illustration.

Was the Immanuel prophecy actually fulfilled? Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14,


Did this actually come to pass? Let’s take a look. Who was the promise made to?

The Lord was to give Ahaz a sign. “Immanuel” was not a sign to Ahaz, but rather, an illustration applied to the Christ Child. Again, this was not an actual fulfillment since Ahaz did not receive the sign.

Now, back to Judas… Gospel Scripture to consider:

Guess what? There is no Jeremiah passage. We do have, Zechariah 11:12-13

Now, I ask, how does this refer specifically to Judas? It doesn’t. Let's look at a few more examples...

Most attempt to offer Psalm 41:9 as a proof text.

Many believe this refers to Judas. Many believe this is a specific “predictive prophecy” concerning Judas. Let’s take a look at what David has to say…

In Ps 41:4-10 David’s prayer had been one for healing after confessing his sin (v. 4). However, he lamented the fact that his enemies took advantage of his condition. Wanting him to die (v. 5), they feigned friendship while slandering him (v. 6), saying that he would never survive (vv. 7-8). Even his trusted friend betrayed (lifted up his heel against) him (v. 9). These words, of course, were quoted by Jesus concerning Judas (John 13:18). But here David had in mind the treachery of his friend Ahithophel, who betrayed him, and then hanged himself (2 Sam. 16:20-17:3, 23).

David was not referring to Judas!!

Now, here’s another passage attributed to Judas.

Unfortunately, no OT Scripture says this.

Now here is some Scripture in Acts to consider:

David didn’t say this about Judas. He said it about his “own familiar friend” Ahithophel.

These scriptures were fulfilled in the sense of illustration by Judas.

The book of Psalms does not say that about Judas.

Peter in Acts 1 said that David prophesied of Judas. But when did David discuss Judas Iscariot? Certainly he did not refer to him directly or name him. The Psalms often anticipate Christ. Likewise the enemies of the royal psalmist became the enemies of the Messiah. Therefore, someone was predicted in Psalms 69:25 and 109:8. Both of these Psalms are royal imprecatory psalms, but the prophecy is very general. Acts 1:20 applies them to Judas. These are not specific “predictive prophecies,” but rather, illustrations of OT examples.

Zman, do you realize that Judas did nothing to "fulfill" Scripture? Judas was not predestined before the foundation of the world or else Matthew 26:24 could never be true. Judas freely chose to betray Christ, and when he did, the NT authors found illustrations from the OT that were similar to Judas' actions and applied them to Judas. God did not need, let alone predestine Judas, to betray Christ...

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

Jeremy,

Are you a believer? I'm just confused, because, from that last post of yours, it seems that you are trying to prove that the Bible is in err, or at least that the Gospel writers were dumb. Which is it?

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Your question is irrelevant (unless you can prove otherwise by getting to the point).

Nineveh was a sinful city. God ordained that Jonah go there to relay God's threat of their destruction. The city repents. God does not destroy them. God is glorified. Everything happened exactly the way God intended it to.

ZMan,

This is the crux of the entire debate! When did God ordain Jonah to go there? Was it five minutes before? Was it 5 years before? Was it "before the foundation of the world?" If you answer anything other than "before the foundation of the world," you have God thinking and acting temporally. If God saw sometime after "before the foundation of the world" that Jonah needed to preach repentance to that city, then God is in fact responding to man's actions (Jeremiah 18).

If you say God knew from eternity past that Jonah would be sent, then you would also be forced to say that God knew they would be a vile and disgusting people. God would foreordain a message of repentace / destruction, already knowing that the king and people would repent. Herein lies the issue... If God foreknows / predestines the evil people / city, also foreknows / predestines Jonah's call to repentance / destruction, then God foreknows / predestines the people's repentance. I'm sorry brother, but that scenario makes God culpable...

Unless of course, you can provide another option?

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jeremy,

Are you a believer? I'm just confused, because, from that last post of yours, it seems that you are trying to prove that the Bible is in err, or at least that the Gospel writers were dumb. Which is it?

ZMan,

Your obfuscation speaks volumes...

--Jeremy

 

[Z Man]

Jeremy,

There is one thing worth taking a shot at in your post:

If the betrayal of Christ by Judas was foreknown and foreordained ... Judas would have had no choice. Therefore, God would have predestined a man to damnation. I know John Calvin taught this idea, but I must ask, “Does God do evil that good may come?”

Since when did it become evil of God to send sinful people to hell?

 

[Z Man]

ZMan,

This is the crux of the entire debate! When did God ordain Jonah to go there? Was it five minutes before? Was it 5 years before? Was it "before the foundation of the world?" If you answer anything other than "before the foundation of the world," you have God thinking and acting temporally. If God saw sometime after "before the foundation of the world" that Jonah needed to preach repentance to that city, then God is in fact responding to man's actions (Jeremiah 18).

If you say God knew from eternity past that Jonah would be sent, then you would also be forced to say that God knew they would be a vile and disgusting people. God would foreordain a message of repentace / destruction, already knowing that the king and people would repent. Herein lies the issue... If God foreknows / predestines the evil people / city, also foreknows / predestines Jonah's call to repentance / destruction, then God foreknows / predestines the people's repentance. I'm sorry brother, but that scenario makes God culpable...

Unless of course, you can provide another option?

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

How can you charge God of wrong doing?

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jeremy,

There is one thing worth taking a shot at in your post:

Since when did it become evil of God to send sinful people to hell?

ZMan,

Are you saying you believe God predestined Judas to hell? Are you saying that Judas never had an opportunity to believe in God and spend eternity with Him? Wow... Seriously, do you believe that Judas had no choice but to betray Christ and spend eternity in hell?

I should ask you the same question... Are you a believer?

--Jeremy

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

How can you charge God of wrong doing?

This doesn't even deserve a response...

Zman,

You charge God with doing evil, not me... You are the one who believes God predestines men to hell. I believe in the God of the Bible who counsels "all to have room for repentance..." (2 Peter 3:9) ....even Judas....

--Jeremy

Are you ever going to respond with Scriptural Evidence to my points raised above?

 

[Shadowx]

Z...Zzzzz

Z...Zzzzz

This is a quote from Billygoat, in the Battle Royal Critique thread:

If God's will was to have his own Son crucified, what makes you think that sinful human beings are not worthy of a similar, if not worse, demise?

You see an equivalency between some one who chooses to take a bullet for you and someone who chooses to rape a kid..who doesn't want to be raped?

God used the wicked to bring about the free will choice of God the son, to atone for sin.
"No one takes my life..I lay it down of my own accord..

God did the work through Christ, did God the father force Jesus to the cross, or was it his choice to be crucified?

That is God's righteousness at work, manipulating the wicked, who were determined to be so, to bring about the completion of Christ's unselfish, loving choice. Saying God controls men to rape kids for entertainment purposes or to false Gods is wicked, by God's standards. God pleads his case on this in Jeremiah 19:4-5.

If that is figurative, please explain the figure.
Did those "sinful", according to Calvinism, kids die because God wanted them murdered?"
If so why does he say he didn't? How could it all be predestined if He doesn't take credit for everything, but blames man saying It was not me, it was you?

And if he didn't want/desire it to happen, why did it?
At times God does manipulate/control the wicked who reject him to bring about good, so what..There is a time for judgment and punishment..

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Zman, if you someday have children and..(God forbid, or does he..?) one of them is raped, you won't tell them God predestined it will you??
Or, God forknew this was going to happen to you, but didn't stop it because he wants to bless you...You should praise God...all things..work..

Isn't that your fundemental belief? What would you say to them?
"Jesus was treated much worse!" "What makes you think you deserve any better!"

Danny

 

[godrulz]

Your question is irrelevant (unless you can prove otherwise by getting to the point).

Nineveh was a sinful city. God ordained that Jonah go there to relay God's threat of their destruction. The city repents. God does not destroy them. God is glorified. Everything happened exactly the way God intended it to.

This is looking in the rear view mirror. If Nineveh did not repent as God intended/hoped, then destruction would have came (God remains true to His Word= promises/threats) and we would have a different historical narrative.

 

[godrulz]

This is a quote from Billygoat, in the Battle Royal Critique thread:

If God's will was to have his own Son crucified, what makes you think that sinful human beings are not worthy of a similar, if not worse, demise?

The crucifixion was predestined. Hitler's heinous evil was not predestined from the foundation of the world. It was a new atrocity that Hitler alone was culpable of.

 

[godrulz]

Jeremy,

There is one thing worth taking a shot at in your post:

Since when did it become evil of God to send sinful people to hell?

Who believes this? People being separated from God involves consequences of their rebellion and upholds the love and holiness of God.

 

[Z Man]

ZMan,

Are you saying you believe God predestined Judas to hell? Are you saying that Judas never had an opportunity to believe in God and spend eternity with Him? Wow... Seriously, do you believe that Judas had no choice but to betray Christ and spend eternity in hell?

I should ask you the same question... Are you a believer?

--Jeremy

Jeremy,

Do people deserve a choice? Did Judas deserve a chance to repent and be saved? You act as if God owes men a favor.

How can you charge God of wrong doing?

This doesn't even deserve a response...

Zman,

You charge God with doing evil, not me... You are the one who believes God predestines men to hell. I believe in the God of the Bible who counsels "all to have room for repentance..." (2 Peter 3:9)

--Jeremy

No, no, no. You don't understand what I was asking. I mean, not that you are stating that God does wrong, but I was wondering how can you say God would be wrong for doing something like predestining someone to hell? How can God be charged for evil for predestining someone's death?

God is the ultimate free being in eternity. He does whatever He pleases, and no man can say to Him, "What are you doing?" Don't forget that. You'd be a fool to think that you can judge God for doing something you disagree with, or that seems to not be a 'loving act' towards you or anyone else. God owes you nothing, and He has no one to answer to.

Are you ever going to respond with Scriptural Evidence to my points raised above?

How can I? You pretty much proved the Bible is wrong!

 

[godrulz]

No one deserves heaven, but you fail to see that election/non-election (TULIP) makes God arbitrary in His love and holiness. He saves some, but does not save some that He could save. It negates the conditions in Scripture and makes salvation eenie-meanie-minnie-moe...instead of John 3:16.

 

[Z Man]

The crucifixion was predestined. Hitler's heinous evil was not predestined from the foundation of the world. It was a new atrocity that Hitler alone was culpable of.

God ordained David to take a census, and yet, David was punished for it (2 Sam. 24). God ordained that Peter deny Him 3 times, and yet Peter wept because he knew he was guilty of his own actions. So can it not be reasonable that God ordained Hitler to murder over 6 million Jews, and yet, Hitler be punished for his crimes?

The Bible teaches that predestination and responsibility go hand in hand.