I believe the concept of Jesus being separate from God while simultaneously not being separate from God is a concept lost people may have a hard time understanding.
Battle Royale XIV discussion thread
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
"Separate" is the wrong word. "Distinct" is the word Catholic bishops use. The Son is distinct from the Father, but they are the same substance (which is an Aristotelian way to categorize terms).
The terms "the Father almighty" and "the Lord Jesus Christ" have different attributes or accidents (another Aristotelian category) but the same substance (the Nicene creed says "con-substantial with the Father"). The distinction is in the accidents, not the substance. There is no distinction in substance, only in accidents.
And the distinction in accidents is the Father generates the Son, and the Son is begotten of the Father.
(Trans-substantiation, by comparison, is the term used to signify that the substance of the host (bread) in Communion changes from bread to Jesus (the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist), even as none of the host's accidents change. It's using the same Aristotelian terminology "substance" and "accidents" (or attributes) as is used to teach about the Trinity.)
Why?
They may have a hard time accepting it as true but that isn't the same thing at all. Why would it be harder for the average Joe to conceptualize that idea than it was for you to write that sentence?
The doctrine of the Trinity is a difficult subject for anyone, including believers, isn't it? But the basic idea isn't hard for anyone to grasp. The only reason its a difficult doctrine is only due to the fact that we haven't been given a lot of detail concerning the specifics surrounding the relationships that exist between the Person's of the Trinity and just how it all works. Its information that we don't need to know, for one thing. It's also information that I'm sure is far enough outside our experience as human beings that there's probably not a lot more information that we could be given that would make sense to us. Regardless of that, I see none of it that a believer can understand that anyone else couldn't understand.
Further, this one sentence post of yours is hardly responsive to the things I said in my post. I simply do not understand your aversion to being substantive and interesting!
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Blah blah blah.
Jesus is God in the flesh - period.
It isn't half as complicated as people, particularly bishops, make it out to be.
What's so hard about understanding the idea that God became a human being? Sure, there's is, as you say, a distinction between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and where one stops and the other starts is maybe an interesting subject to explore to one degree or another but at the end of the day, we do not know the answer to that question and we do not need to know the answer to that question and we really ought to be content with that.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Among Protestants apparently quite a lot.
We absolutely do know the answer to that question, and I said what it is.
Verses that @Dartman does not read...
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
Really? Prove it, hypocrite!
Put up or shut up time, Idolater! You think you're so damn superior to me then show us all your Catholic wisdom!
Liar.
Prove me wrong! I dare you.
You won't even try.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
AMR. I don't think I'm superior to you Clete. What are you talking about? We're just talking.
The Son is begotten by the Father and the Father generates the Son. That's the two distinctions between the Two Persons the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
As soon as Christ's God resurrected Jesus from the dead Jesus took up his life, right where he left off .....
Eph 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, 20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Versus "19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body."
Dartman: Errrr, you see, metaphor, figurative.
John 2:19-21
Oops. Sorry, I clicked "post reply" somehow, before I could actually reply.
Jesus DID raise up and walk out of that tomb. But Jesus did NOT make himself alive again. His GOD did that.
Eph 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, 20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
So, do you believe Paul?
Jesus did exactly what he said he would do. He stood up, and walked out of the tomb to "take up his life" again.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
As predicted, you completely contradict Jesus. John 2:19-21
False dichotomy.
I believe both, as I am free to do, because I believe the Apostolic oral teaching of the explicit Trinity, which is your stumbling stone.
Why would anyone think most people would have an easy time understanding or believing that while Jesus was on earth talking to men He was also in heaven at the same time?
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Not at all. The Jews killed Jesus, just as he predicted. Jesus stood up, and walked out of the tomb, just as he predicted.
Please provide this alleged "Apostolic oral teaching".
And, please explain EXACTLY how you think you agree with these "explicit" statements of Scripture paying particular attention to The Father being both the "God of our Lord Jesus Christ" AND that it is God the Father that raised Jesus;
Eph 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, 20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
John 3:13 is John's comment.
But your point is still valid. No one has an "easy time understanding or believing" MOST of those elements of trinitarian theory that are unique to the trinity.
(I keep saying "unique to the trinity" because of the annoying habit trinitarians have to point out the portions of their doctrine that actually ARE true.)
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
He predicted He'd raise Himself.
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
You're just a liar and an idiot----both.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3 chapter 3:
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics (that's you, Dartman)] rave about.
This particular translation is from the following link.
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapters 1 to 14
Irenaeus understanding the Gnostics and refuting them. He argues logically and uses biblical truth of God calling out the heritics
carm.org
The Trinity.
The Trinity.Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
You misunderstand Jesus' statement. Jesus was taking about the act of rising up out of the grave physically ... not about bringing himself back to life. Here is a great example using the exact same Greek word:
Mark 2:9-12 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
As we can see, Jesus did NOT resurrect the sick man, Jesus told him to stand up.
This harmonizes perfectly with the REST of Scripture, that states PLAINLY that Christ's God, Christ's Father, God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Once brought back to life, Jesus STOOD UP, WALKED OUT OF THE TOMB, AND "TOOK UP HIS LIFE" AGAIN.
Irenaeus wasn't an Apostle.Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3 chapter 3:
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics (that's you, Dartman)] rave about.
This particular translation is from the following link.
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapters 1 to 14
Irenaeus understanding the Gnostics and refuting them. He argues logically and uses biblical truth of God calling out the heritics
Please provide an APOSTLIC ORAL TEACHING.
And, please explain EXACTLY how you think you agree with these "explicit" statements of Scripture paying particular attention to The Father being both the "God of our Lord Jesus Christ" AND that it is God the Father that raised Jesus;
Eph 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, 20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
You're condescending and insulting.
Yeah, no kidding. The Son and the Father are also One and in more important ways that what we can either say or even understand.
There's a lot more distinctions than that. God the Son is the God who not only became a man but also DIED and who lives again. God the Father can't make claim to any of that except in so far as He and the Son are One.
And yet is also distinct from both.
So, tell me, Idolater, where does one start and the other stop? That's the question you claimed that we know the answer too or do you want to walk that back?