Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

[Dartman]

Oh oh oh! And also, "I and My Father are One." John 10:30

Of course Jesus and his God are one .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God, and God's anointed:
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[Idolater]

Of course Jesus and his God are one .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God, and God's anointed:
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Dartman's version of John 1

1 In the beginning was ME! and I was with God! and I was God!

2 I was in the beginning with God!

3 All things were made by ME! and without ME! was not any thing made that was made!

4 In ME! was life; and the life was the light of men!!!

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One" .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God!!!

smh you clown.

 

[Dartman]

Dartman's version of John 1

1 In the beginning was ME! and I was with God! and I was God!

2 I was in the beginning with God!

3 All things were made by ME! and without ME! was not any thing made that was made!

4 In ME! was life; and the life was the light of men!!!

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One" .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God!!!

smh you clown.

Sadly, your refusal to actually discuss the plain, simple statements of Scripture shouts volumes regarding the weakness of the theory you represent.
The Scriptures plainly, and simply state that Jesus IS YHVH God's holy servant, and is the direct descendent of Eve, Abraham, Judah, David and Mary. That Jesus has a different will than his God. That Jesus and the other Jews worship the TRUE God. That Jesus is, and always will be SUBJECT to his God.

By contrast, there isn't a single Scripture that plainly, and simply states ANY aspect of trinitarian theory that is unique to the trinity.

 

[Dartman]

Dartman's version of John 1

1 In the beginning was ME! and I was with God! and I was God!

2 I was in the beginning with God!

3 All things were made by ME! and without ME! was not any thing made that was made!

4 In ME! was life; and the life was the light of men!!!

Nope.
My version of John 1 is exactly what John wrote, using the exact same definition of "logos" that John uses throughout his writings.
Logos means words.
Always.
Like this:
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (LOGOS): and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[Clete]

Nope. The fact that there isn't a single verse that explains, states or describes a single teaching that is unique to the trinity, is what makes my post accurate.

Lying doesn't count as an argument.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Since you're not here to actually debate anyone and no amount of scripture would move you an inch, one verse is all you get, which is sufficient to blow your entire theological construct into dust anyway.


I can't imagine what it must be like to believe a doctrine that is so easily proven false and yet believing it anyway. I cannot fathom what sort of mind such a thing requires. What would be the point of even reading the bible at all, much less going around calling yourself a Christian?

 

[Clete]

Nope.
My version of John 1 is exactly what John wrote, using the exact same definition of "logos" that John uses throughout his writings.
Logos means words.
Always.
Like this:
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (LOGOS): and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Logos does not mean "words". It means "reason" and, in the Greek context in which John was using it, it was referring to the intelligence that created and sustains existence.

Regardless of the meaning of the word "logos", John explicitly states that he is talking about God, the Creator of everything...

John 1:1b ...and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

 

[Clete]

Sadly, your refusal to actually discuss the plain, simple statements of Scripture shouts volumes regarding the weakness of the theory you represent.

Kettles and pots!

The Scriptures plainly, and simply state that Jesus IS YHVH God's holy servant, and is the direct descendent of Eve, Abraham, Judah, David and Mary.

Which is true. He was also the Creator and was with God in the beginning and was God. So says the Apostle John.

That Jesus has a different will than his God.

...than God the Father. He is a separate person, even more so in His human condition.

That Jesus and the other Jews worship the TRUE God. That Jesus is, and always will be SUBJECT to his God.

Now who's reading into the scripture?

By contrast, there isn't a single Scripture that plainly, and simply states ANY aspect of trinitarian theory that is unique to the trinity.

There's no way that you don't know otherwise. I wonder why you have to resort to such intentionally deceptive posturing?

 

[Dartman]

Lying doesn't count as an argument.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Since you're not here to actually debate anyone and no amount of scripture would move you an inch, one verse is all you get, which is sufficient to blow your entire theological construct into dust anyway.


I can't imagine what it must be like to believe a doctrine that is so easily proven false and yet believing it anyway. I cannot fathom what sort of mind such a thing requires. What would be the point of even reading the bible at all, much less going around calling yourself a Christian.

....... wow!
How ironic that the "one verse is all you get" is the most blatantly obviously false "verse" ever.
The coercion required to get Erasmus to include this verse into his 3rd edition is legendary!!
Second ..... this verse doesn't actually state ANYTHING to prove the trinity!
We all agree that the Father, His words, and His spirit bear witness.
We all agree that the Father, His words, and His spirit are one!

And, how telling that this is the best that you can do.

 

[Dartman]

Logos does not mean "words". It means "reason" and, in the Greek context in which John was using it, it was referring to the intelligence that created and sustains existence.

Regardless of the meaning of the word "logos", John explicitly states that he is talking about God, the Creator of everything...

John 1:1b ...and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

The definition of LOGOS includes "reason". God's "reason" is expressed by His words. God's power is conveyed by His words. YHVH God IS "the Creator of everything", and Jesus is the Creators "holy servant":
Acts 4:24-31 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "

 

[Dartman]

No who's reading into the scripture?

I think you are referencing my statement:
"That Jesus and the other Jews worship the TRUE God."

And, here is the Scripture that states this fact:
John 4:21-22 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE know what WE worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

However, you also included this statement in the quote of my post: "That Jesus is, and always will be SUBJECT to his God."

So, here are the Scriptures that state this fact:
1 Cor 15:24-28 then comes the end, when he delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him. 28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Of course the utter lack of Scripture stating trinitarian theory means the theory isn't Biblical.

Except that there isn't a lack of scripture that supports the idea that God is triune.

The trinity denies that the Father is the .... only .... true God.

Wrong.

Rather, we Trinitarians assert (with scriptural support) that [the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit] is the ONLY true God.

You, on the other hand, try to force that verse to say that "ONLY the Father is the true God." But that's not what it says.

The trinitarian position contradicts the Scripture, the reality of God's creation and rational thought.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

IF trinitarian theory WAS correct, Jesus would have HAD to say "WE are the only true God".

Why?

Hogwash. Your assertion denies the very meaning of the words Jesus stated.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Please support your assertion.

That you assume that Jesus isn't the same "only true God" when you read John 17:1-5? The thread is still here for for all to read, Dart.

Jesus is not, never has been, and never will be .... "co-equal, co-eternal, or con-substantial" with his God.

Not what I asked.

I asked you to state that you do or do not claim that Jesus is not God. Again: Do you claim that Jesus is not God, yes or no?

Jesus, as one of the rulers of Israel,

Jesus is the king of Israel. There can only be one king.

certainly qualifies as "god" per Psa 82,

Jesus is the Judge of the earth:

God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? SelahDefend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked.They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable.I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.”Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations. - Psalm 82:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm82:1-8&version=NKJV

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew25:31-46&version=NKJV

Psa 45,

The very passage you quote shows that Jesus is God:

My heart is overflowing with a good theme; I recite my composition concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever.Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty.And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things.Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; The peoples fall under You.Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia, Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.Listen, O daughter, Consider and incline your ear; Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;So the King will greatly desire your beauty; Because He is your Lord, worship Him.And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift; The rich among the people will seek your favor.The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace; Her clothing is woven with gold.She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors; The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought; They shall enter the King’s palace.Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations; Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever. - Psalm 45:1-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm45:1-17&version=NKJV

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:5-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:5-14&version=NKJV

John 10:34,35

If Jesus is not God, then He was indeed committing blasphemy, and deserved every stone that they would have thrown at Him, for blasphemers, according to the Law of Moses, were to be stoned to death (Leviticus 24:16).

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.I and My Father are one.”Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. - John 10:25-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:25-39&version=NKJV

and Heb 1:8-9.

See above.

For the record, you are admitting that the Scriptures never state, explain or describe trinitarian theory?

For the record, the Bible does, in fact, teach that God is triune, and that Jesus is God.

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is... - Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17 - From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2 - Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10 - Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9 - Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17 - Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20 - Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13 - Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8 - The exact equivalent in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead") in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc. to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10 to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11 as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13 as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17 as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14 as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23 as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14 as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22 as Lawgiver: James 4:12 as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8 as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.

kgov.com/deity

And that's just the traditional passages. The Bible is a much bigger book, with a record of things that Jesus said that, if He was not God, would be blasphemous.

I don't know what you mean by "trinitarian theory."

 

[Dartman]

Except that there isn't a lack of scripture that supports the idea that God is triune.

You are deliberately avoiding the fact that there are zero Scriptures that "state, explain or describe" the trinity. We all know there are many verses trinitarians claim "support" their theory.
By stark contrast, there are MANY verses that clearly and simply state that YHVH God is "the ONLY true God", and that clearly and simply state that Jesus of Nazareth is the SON of God, the SON of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Judah, David and Mary. That Jesus is the SERVANT of the Creator.

... you assume that Jesus isn't the same "only true God" when you read John 17:1-5? The thread is still here for for all to read, Dart.

You are absolutely correct, Jesus is NOT his Father. His Father is "the ONLY true God", and Jesus is the one "sent by" the ONLY true God.

Jesus is the king of Israel. There can only be one king.

At a time, yes.
Jesus will be the LAST "king of Israel". There have been MANY kings of Israel, including Christ's ancestor David, all those kings are being discussed in Psa 45.

I don't know what you mean by "trinitarian theory."

Of course you do.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are deliberately avoiding

I'm avoiding nothing.

the fact that there are zero Scriptures that "state, explain or describe" the trinity.

Except for all the ones that do "state, explain, or describe" the Trinity.

We all know there are many verses trinitarians claim "support" their theory.

So none of these verses support the idea that the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God?

Deity of Christ Bible Verses: A Different Approach | KGOV.com

kgov.com

By stark contrast, there are MANY verses that clearly and simply state that YHVH God is "the ONLY true God", and that clearly and simply state that Jesus of Nazareth is the SON of God, the SON of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Judah, David and Mary. That Jesus is the SERVANT of the Creator.

All of these things are what Trinitarians believe.

You seem to be forgetting that Trinitarians are MONOtheistic. We worship the only true God. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You are absolutely correct, Jesus is NOT his Father.

And yet, Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit, for that matter) is the one true God. "I and My Father are . . . ONE!"

His Father is "the ONLY true God",

You seem to be reading the verse as if it says "ONLY the Father is the only true God." But that's not what it says. It says "that they may know ..." Who? "You (the Father) ... and Jesus Christ (the Son)."

and Jesus is the one "sent by" the ONLY true God.

The Father is the only true God, just as the Son is the only true God, just as the Holy Spirit is the only true God.

The verse does not preclude the second two of the above, no matter how many times you repeat your position.

. . .
There have been MANY kings of Israel, including Christ's ancestor David, all those kings are being discussed in Psa 45.

Sounds like you've never even read the chapter. I even quoted it above for you, since you didn't bother quoting it yourself, when you made an erroneous claim.

Go read it. Do the math. There are TWO "God"s in that chapter. Not one. They are both the same God, just as in Hebrews 1.

From the beginning of the Bible in Genesis 1:1, to the very end, it teaches that there is a plurality within the Godhead.

Of course you do.

Telling me what I know and don't know now, are you? Talk about arrogant!

 

[Dartman]

I'm avoiding nothing.



Except for all the ones that do "state, explain, or describe" the Trinity.



So none of these verses support the idea that the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God?

Deity of Christ Bible Verses: A Different Approach | KGOV.com

kgov.com

All of these things are what Trinitarians believe.

You seem to be forgetting that Trinitarians are MONOtheistic. We worship the only true God. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I am not forgetting that trinitarians CLAIM to be monotheistic. I am very aware that trinitarian theory is self-contradictory. There is NO difference between a person and a being, so you have a three Gods in one God impossibility at the core of your theory. It took over 3 centuries for this illogical theory to become "mainstream".
You are ignoring Christ's clear simple statement that HIS FATHER is "the ONLY true God".
You state, "He (God) is Father Son and holy spirit" ..... but the Scriptures do NOT STATE that.

And yet, Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit, for that matter) is the one true God. "I and My Father are . . . ONE!"

They ARE one, exactly like ALL the believers are one!
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Sounds like you've never even read the chapter. I even quoted it above for you, since you didn't bother quoting it yourself, when you made an erroneous claim.

Go read it. Do the math. There are TWO "God"s in that chapter. Not one. They are both the same God, just as in Hebrews 1.

From the beginning of the Bible in Genesis 1:1, to the very end, it teaches that there is a plurality within the Godhead.

You need to reread the chapter. The chapter is addressed to more kings than JUST Jesus! It includes kings with daughters, it mentions the kings "fellows". The chapter clearly establishes that YHVH God is "thy God" to the kings of Israel. The same with Psa 82. The Hebrew word "Elohiym" CAN also be interpreted "mighty one", which certainly applies to Jesus of Nazareth, the direct descendent of Adam, Abraham, Judah and David.

 

[Dartman]

So, what we have seen so far:
The statement that there are no Scriptures that "state, explain or describe" the trinity has been shown to be true.
The BEST "Scripture" offered was the most notorious spurious text in existence (1 John 5:7).
The actual Scriptures offered in support of trinitarian theory have NOT stated, explained or described the trinity, they merely MIGHT be interpreted in such a way as to INFER support.
As these quotes state, from Ungers Bible Dictionary, (which is clearly a publication sympathetic to trinitarian theory);
TRINITY

The religion of the OT is emphatically monotheistic. The almost exclusive proclamation of the unity of God was essential as a safeguard against polytheism.

The NT teaching upon this subject is not given in the way of formal statement. The formal statement, however, is legitimately and necessarily deduced from the Scriptures of the NT, and these, as has been suggested, cast a light backward upon the intimations of the OT. Reliance, it is held by many competent critics, is not to be placed upon the passages in Acts 20:28 and 1 Tim 3:16; and 1 John 5:7 is commonly regarded as spurious.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

The history of the development of trinitarian teaching is very interesting! The term was first alluded to by Tertullian, roughly 150 years AFTER the New Testament was being written. The so called "church fathers" did NOT explain anything like the doctrine that had evolved by the late 4th century! In fact, they would have been called heretics by the later trinitarians. And, they were writing in defense of their minority viewpoint, AGAINST their contemporary Jewish brothers! Jesus FIRMLY endorsed the God of the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers! (John 4). The other NT writers did exactly the same thing. The Jews have NEVER been trinitarian!

The New Testament is full of warnings about "false Christs", and believing in "another Jesus", or "antichrist".

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am not forgetting that trinitarians CLAIM to be monotheistic.

It's not just a claim.

Trinitarianism is, in fact, a monotheistic belief.

I am very aware that trinitarian theory is self-contradictory.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

There is NO difference between a person and a being,

When it comes to humans, yes!

But we're talking about God, not humans.

so you have a three Gods in one God impossibility at the core of your theory.

Straw man.

This mischaracterization of what trinitarianism teaches is why you can't understand it.

It's not "three Gods in one God." that is, indeed, illogical and impossible.

If you want to defeat the idea of the Trinity, you need to steel man your opponent's argument, not straw man.

The argument being that God is three PERSONS in one Godhead.

Three WHOs. One WHAT.

It took over 3 centuries for this illogical theory to become "mainstream".

Calling it illogical doesn't make it so.

You are ignoring Christ's clear simple statement that HIS FATHER is "the ONLY true God".

Ignoring it, to the point of agreeing with it...

The Father is the only true God, just as the Son is the only true God, just as the Holy Spirit is the only true God.

The verse does not preclude the second two of the above, no matter how many times you repeat your position.

Oh wait...

You state, "He (God) is Father Son and holy spirit" ..... but the Scriptures do NOT STATE that.

Spoiler

THREE QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE TRINITY IS BIBLICALLY TRUE OR FALSE. If any one of these questions can be answered 'no,' then the Trinity can be rejected as an unbiblical belief. But if all three can be answered 'yes,' then the concept of the Trinity can be accepted as true. 1. Does the Bible mention three distinct persons? 2. Does the Bible refer to each of these persons as God? 3. Does the Bible teach there is only one God? The answers: 1. Are three distinct persons mentioned? YES. A. The Father (1 John 3:1) B. The Son (1 John 1:3) C. The Holy Spirit (John 14:6; 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14; Romans 15:30; Ephesians 4:30) 2. Are each of these persons referred to as God? YES. A. God the Father (1 Thessalonians 1:1) B. God the Son (John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9) C. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) 3. Is there only one God? YES. (see Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Psalm 86:10; Isaiah 45:5; 45:22)

FOR ANYONE WHO REJECTS THE TRINITY AS BIBLICAL:
Please show how the verses provided do not answer in the affirmative all three questions asked.

They ARE one, exactly like ALL the believers are one!
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

But not one God, apparently, because that would go against everything you've said so far...

He is Elohim indeed...
They are "gods" indeed...

Hmmm...

You need to reread the chapter.

I did. You clearly haven't at all.

The chapter is addressed to more kings than JUST Jesus! It includes kings with daughters, it mentions the kings "fellows". The chapter clearly establishes that YHVH God is "thy God" to the kings of Israel. The same with Psa 82. The Hebrew word "Elohiym" CAN also be interpreted "mighty one", which certainly applies to Jesus of Nazareth, the direct descendent of Adam, Abraham, Judah and David.

Still missing the point.

Again: THERE ARE TWO "God"S IN THE CHAPTER!

So, what we have seen so far:

Is Dartman completely ignoring what is presented to him.

The statement that there are no Scriptures that "state, explain or describe" the trinity has been shown to be true.

False.

The BEST "Scripture" offered was the most notorious spurious text in existence (1 John 5:7).

Have you not noticed that I haven't used that verse at all?

The actual Scriptures offered in support of trinitarian theory have NOT stated, explained or described the trinity,

Yes, they do.

they merely MIGHT be interpreted in such a way as to INFER support.

But you won't explain why they don't do the former.

As these quotes state, from Ungers Bible Dictionary,

Who?

(which is clearly a publication sympathetic to trinitarian theory);
TRINITY

The religion of the OT is emphatically monotheistic.

So are trinitarians.

The almost exclusive proclamation of the unity of God was essential as a safeguard against polytheism.

Yes, trinitarianism teaches that there is a UNITY within the Godhead, such that Deuteronomy 6:4 uses the same word to describe God as being ONE GOD as Genesis 2:24 describes husband and wife becoming ONE FLESH.

Husband and wife are UNITED upon marriage.

God is one (unity).

Same word in Hebrew. Same meaning, showing a plurality, further indicated by God's use (which is also the origin of) the "royal we" in Genesis 1.

The NT teaching upon this subject is not given in the way of formal statement. The formal statement, however, is legitimately and necessarily deduced from the Scriptures of the NT, and these, as has been suggested, cast a light backward upon the intimations of the OT. Reliance, it is held by many competent critics, is not to be placed upon the passages in Acts 20:28 and 1 Tim 3:16; and 1 John 5:7 is commonly regarded as spurious.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

Ok, and?

The history of the development of trinitarian teaching is very interesting! The term was first alluded to by Tertullian, roughly 150 years AFTER the New Testament was being written. The so called "church fathers" did NOT explain anything like the doctrine that had evolved by the late 4th century! In fact, they would have been called heretics by the later trinitarians. And, they were writing in defense of their minority viewpoint, AGAINST their contemporary Jewish brothers! Jesus FIRMLY endorsed the God of the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers! (John 4). The other NT writers did exactly the same thing. The Jews have NEVER been trinitarian!

No one has said otherwise...?

So what's your point?

The New Testament is full of warnings about "false Christs", and believing in "another Jesus", or "antichrist".

Smearing trinitarians as teaching a "false Christ" or "another Jesus" or being "antichrist" is a surefire way of getting banned. This is a trinitarian board. We will not tolerate such accusations. Yes, this is subjective. Deal with it.

You have been warned.

 

[Dartman]

THREE QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE TRINITY IS BIBLICALLY TRUE OR FALSE. If any one of these questions can be answered 'no,' then the Trinity can be rejected as an unbiblical belief. But if all three can be answered 'yes,' then the concept of the Trinity can be accepted as true.

Saying this is so does not make it so.

1. Does the Bible mention three distinct persons?

Sure, Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego .... Peter, James and John .... Noah, Job and Daniel.

Your point is utterly meaningless, UNLESS you produce ANY Scripture that states: "God is three distinct persons".
THIS is a classic example of the failed "logic" of trinitarian theory.

1. Are three distinct persons mentioned? YES.
A. The Father (1 John 3:1)
B. The Son (1 John 1:3)

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His son Jesus Christ.
Again, this verse doesn't state anything remotely resembling your point. Nor do any other texts.

Smearing trinitarians as teaching a "false Christ" or "another Jesus" or being "antichrist" is a surefire way of getting banned. This is a trinitarian board. We will not tolerate such accusations. Yes, this is subjective. Deal with it.

You have been warned.

There was nothing in the 10 "commandments" regarding disagreeing with the trinity.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Saying this is so does not make it so.

You fail.

It's called a premise, and it's based on the rules of logic, particularly the Law of excluded middle.

I'm flattered you're trying to imitate me, though.

But you need to actually know what you're talking about in order to use that phrase.

Sure, Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego .... Peter, James and John .... Noah, Job and Daniel.

Funny how you gave three groups of three names... (even though the last three don't really have any particular tie to each other... Try Eve, Sarah, and Mary

Threes are everywhere in scripture and in reality...

But back to the topic... We're talking about God here, not men (or women, for that matter).

Are there three Persons (of the trinity) mentioned? Yes. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Your point is utterly meaningless,

Saying it doesn't make it so.

That's how you use it.

UNLESS you produce ANY Scripture that states: "God is three distinct persons".

Why do I have to do that? I'm trying to establish my position to you using Scripture and reason. Is that not enough?

Or perhaps you're setting the bar too high, and convincing yourself that you're right because no one can match your unrealistic standards?

THIS is a classic example of the failed "logic" of trinitarian theory.

Appeal to the stone.

Don't use logical fallacies to support your arguments. You build your house upon sand by doing so.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His son Jesus Christ.
Again, this verse doesn't state anything remotely resembling your point. Nor do any other texts.

This is what happens when you ignore most of what is said to you. This is only PART of the argument.

Try getting the big picture for once by responding to everything that is said, instead of just bits and pieces.

There was nothing in the 10 "commandments" regarding disagreeing with the trinity.

See the first paragraph, along with rules 3, 4, 7, and the second to last paragraph.

 

[Idolater]

Look what the Psalmist says about Dartman.

Psalm 102
I said, O DARTMAN, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.


And how Dartman reads Paul.

Philippians 3
Let this mind be in you, which IS also in ME!:

6 Who (ME!), being in the form of God (ME!), THINK it not robbery to be equal with God!!!


Remember, this is Dartman's version of John 10:30 (with his commentary).

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One" .... EXACTLY like ALL believers are one with God!!!

 

[Clete]

....... wow!
How ironic that the "one verse is all you get" is the most blatantly obviously false "verse" ever.

Like I said, why bother reading the bible in the first place. You're willing, not only to ignore what it says but when it directly contradicts your doctrine to a point that it cannot be denied in any rational manner, you simply find an excuse to cut it out of the bible.

The coercion required to get Erasmus to include this verse into his 3rd edition is legendary!!
Second ..... this verse doesn't actually state ANYTHING to prove the trinity!
We all agree that the Father, His words, and His spirit bear witness.
We all agree that the Father, His words, and His spirit are one!

And, how telling that this is the best that you can do.

Why bother with all this hoop jumping? Why not simply admit that you're going to believe whatever the Hell you want to believe no matter what anyone says? Why do you even care what the bible teaches at all? There's no reason for you too because if the bible doesn't teach that a plurality exists within the Godhead, it doesn't teach anything at all. The very first verse of Genesis proves your doctrine false! I mean, you literally cannot get past the first sentence of the bible without having to explain it away! So what in the world are you even doing?