ECT Basic understandings about Faith, and saving Faith. part 1

[Faither]

Well it depends what the promise is. If we're talking about salvation and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, we believe before we have it.
Lets use examples from scripture.....

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Like I said earlier, the word of God brings hope, the Spirit ads conviction, and in this situation, salvation is ours to claim.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that the turning from self to Christ by faith, leads to the receiving of the Holy Spirit?



A person cannot understand spiritual truths and pray for things, coming to the Father as a Son etc, but salvation itself is based on hearing the gospel which offers hope, conviction by the Spirit, and then our response is to believe.

So your changing your position? Your in effect saying you can claim Gods Word as you own , before Christ and His Spirit are yours? And also the level of surrender you mentioned is only "belief"?

You Said,
"Notice that the turning from self to Christ by faith, leads to the receiving of the Holy Spirit?"

The difference i'm trying to point out, is that "Faith" in your statement is a noun. The application of that noun "faith" (pistis), is the verb , (pisteuo) and defined in the Greek as "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender," not believing.

When you changed your position, and went back to only belief in Gods Word, you in effect made most of the people in history not able to receive the Spirit of Christ. Is this your conclusion?

 

[Faither]

Andy, if you intend to respond, remember we are discussing the state of being that is outside of God and His Word. We both agree Faith will start the relationship, but we have completely different understandings of what Faith is. As the result of this difference, we are on separate paths.

 

[Faither]

Ultimately Andy, the real difference between "believing" in Gods Word to recieve the Holy Spirit, and a "continual daily surrendering of our lives to Him ", that results in the Spirit of Christ being sealed in us, is "believing" is Faithing in Gods Words, "Daily surrendering ourselves to Him", is faithing in Jesus Christ Himself , a real person!

There is a big difference between faithing in His Word and God Himself. God is a real living person!

 

[Danoh]

I knew you two flesh (works) based delusionists were not on the same page.

Neither of you able to see you are not on the same page even in your delusion.

Here, have a dose of spiritual reality.

It even starts out describing "the boat uh yooz" (or...you two).

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Faither]

Andy, if we've gone as far as we can, thank you for your kind way and your honesty. I know i can sound hard and arrogant sometimes, but thats no my intent. Thats just how the passion for this topic comes out.

This specific topic is one of a half dozen ways i can prove "believing" in Gods Word at the start of the Salvation journey is a false path. I hope we can continue with an honest discussion.

 

[Faither]

The reason i pound on this so much , is that although there are many differences in doctrine here between all the members here, they are the same when it comes to understanding that "believing alone" can start the covenant with Christ. They are all the same in Gods eyes. They are all on the same wide path, and are still in the drawing of the Father stage of their journey. They falsely think they have been moving forward in the Process, but are still in the drawing phase. God is waiting for the true act of Faith that "only" starts the relationship. The continual daily surrendering of our life and will to Him.

 

[andyc]

Hiya

Sorry I forgot this thread, i got caught up in another thread earlier. Mordor has been unleashed on that thread at the moment, so I'll spend some time here for a bit.

So your changing your position? Your in effect saying you can claim Gods Word as you own , before Christ and His Spirit are yours? And also the level of surrender you mentioned is only "belief"?

It's not as straight forward as this. If we look at the parable of the sower, we find different situations where a person receives the word with joy initially, and then there are varying degrees of dedication.

You Said,
"Notice that the turning from self to Christ by faith, leads to the receiving of the Holy Spirit?"

That's right, as the scriptures I showed seem to suggest, and as my own testimony supports.

The difference i'm trying to point out, is that "Faith" in your statement is a noun. The application of that noun "faith" (pistis), is the verb , (pisteuo) and defined in the Greek as "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender," not believing.

Faith is always in the now, as it is timeless. If the gospel message has been delivered properly, there needs to be a surrendering of the life to Christ. After all, if we're turning to Christ, we must be turning from something else, and of course that something else is self. Now, as a person is hearing the gospel, and is convicted by it, he won't understand all of the technicalities of what happens next, only that he needs forgiveness.

When you changed your position, and went back to only belief in Gods Word, you in effect made most of the people in history not able to receive the Spirit of Christ. Is this your conclusion?

Obviously not.

 

[andyc]

Andy, if you intend to respond, remember we are discussing the state of being that is outside of God and His Word. We both agree Faith will start the relationship, but we have completely different understandings of what Faith is. As the result of this difference, we are on separate paths.

I'm still with you, and still trying to understand your angle.

 

[andyc]

Ultimately Andy, the real difference between "believing" in Gods Word to recieve the Holy Spirit, and a "continual daily surrendering of our lives to Him ", that results in the Spirit of Christ being sealed in us, is "believing" is Faithing in Gods Words, "Daily surrendering ourselves to Him", is faithing in Jesus Christ Himself , a real person!

There is a big difference between faithing in His Word and God Himself. God is a real living person!

Ok
So faith is active. Faith without works is dead. We believe therefore we speak. If we believe what the word says, it will produce fruit in our daily lives, otherwise the seed remains seed. yes?

 

[andyc]

I knew you two flesh (works) based delusionists were not on the same page.

Neither of you able to see you are not on the same page even in your delusion.

Here, have a dose of spiritual reality.

It even starts out describing "the boat uh yooz" (or...you two).

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What in the world is this about?

 

[andyc]

The reason i pound on this so much , is that although there are many differences in doctrine here between all the members here, they are the same when it comes to understanding that "believing alone" can start the covenant with Christ. They are all the same in Gods eyes. They are all on the same wide path, and are still in the drawing of the Father stage of their journey. They falsely think they have been moving forward in the Process, but are still in the drawing phase. God is waiting for the true act of Faith that "only" starts the relationship. The continual daily surrendering of our life and will to Him.

Well, a person is either saved or they're not. People cannot drift in and out of salvation. There are multiple reasons for a person to backslide or become stagnant in their christian walk, but if they truly were born again, they will still have that trust in Christ. Unless of course they apostatize, but that is another subject altogether.