ECT Basic understandings about Faith, and saving Faith. part 1

[Faither]

Yes, Im still with you.
The natual man cant receive the things of God.

OK. What i'm establishing is that we all start our Salvation journey at a point where the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His Word are not ours to claim? Still good?

 

[andyc]

Good point, your talking about MT. 14:31, where Christ tells His disciples , "O ye of little Faith, why did you doubt." The word for "little Faith in the Greek is 3640 in the Strongs and means little of Faith. This word was only used by the Lord as a tender rebuke.

No its actually Mat 17:20.

Notice the contradiction?
They couldn't cast out the demon because they had such little faith. Yet he went on to explain that they could remove mountains if they had faith as a mustard seed. In other words - a tiny, but pure, faith. And so the diciples problem was not that they had little faith, but that they had unbelief, which negates belief. Similar to the man who said, "I believe, help my unbelief". This man was on to something regarding faith.

 

[andyc]

OK. What i'm establishing is that we all start our Salvation journey at a point where the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His Word are not ours to claim? Still good?

Yes
The word starts out as a hope. The gospel is a mesage of hope, but until received in the heart there is no faith (parable of the seed).
Are we still on the same page?

 

[Faither]

Yes
The word starts out as a hope. The gospel is a mesage of hope, but until received in the heart there is no faith (parable of the seed).
Are we still on the same page?

Just to make sure were on the same page, when we agree that if the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His word are not ours. That means none of those 3 things are ours to claim, correct?

 

[andyc]

Just to make sure were on the same page, when we agree that if the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His word are not ours. That means none of those 3 things are ours to claim, correct?

If you could expand on this, it would help.

 

[Faither]

If you could expand on this, it would help.

Ok, pretty straight forward. Unless the Spirit of Christ is sealed into us, Christ is not ours. That means we can't claim anything He has to offer us, until His Spirit is put in us. I go one step further, that if Christ is not ours none of His promises are ours either. Ultimately, Nothing in Gods Word would be ours to claim at the starting point of our Salvation journey.

I'm establishing a connection with the people today who have Gods Word in front of them , and those people before the 1500's when the written Word was not yet in mass circulation. So what i'm saying is there is no difference between people that had never seen the Word of God, and people who are starting their journey, Because even though they have the Word of God in front of them , it's not theres yet. Establishing the to times in history are the same as neither can access the Word of God.

So i got to ask you again, if Christ is not ours as the result of not having His Spirit in us yet, His word is not ours to claim yet either, correct?

 

[andyc]

Ok, pretty straight forward. Unless the Spirit of Christ is sealed into us, Christ is not ours. That means we can't claim anything He has to offer us, until His Spirit is put in us. I go one step further, that if Christ is not ours none of His promises are ours either. Ultimately, Nothing in Gods Word would be ours to claim at the starting point of our Salvation journey.

I'm establishing a connection with the people today who have Gods Word in front of them , and those people before the 1500's when the written Word was not yet in mass circulation. So what i'm saying is there is no difference between people that had never seen the Word of God, and people who are starting their journey, Because even though they have the Word of God in front of them , it's not theres yet. Establishing the to times in history are the same as neither can access the Word of God.

So i got to ask you again, if Christ is not ours as the result of not having His Spirit in us yet, His word is not ours to claim yet either, correct?

Ok thanks for that, and yes I'm right with you in this.

 

[Faither]

Ok thanks for that, and yes I'm right with you in this.

So to recap,

we are all basically in the same state of being when we start our walk with Christ, even the same as everyone before us in history. The things we have in common at the start are, we are being drawn by the Father. Nobody comes to Christ, unless the Father draws them. The difference is we know that now, people before the 1500's could still be drawn by the Father, but wouldn't really know what was happening.

So here's the big question Andy. What is God drawing all we people of history to, and how do we respond to that drawing? There has to be something that is acceptable to God to initiate a relationship with Him, and work for the people before Gods Word and after we have Gods Word. What would that be?

 

[andyc]

So to recap,

we are all basically in the same state of being when we start our walk with Christ, even the same as everyone before us in history. The things we have in common at the start are, we are being drawn by the Father. Nobody comes to Christ, unless the Father draws them. The difference is we know that now, people before the 1500's could still be drawn by the Father, but wouldn't really know what was happening.

So here's the big question Andy. What is God drawing all we people of history to, and how do we respond to that drawing? There has to be something that is acceptable to God to initiate a relationship with Him, and work for the people before Gods Word and after we have Gods Word. What would that be?

I guess in this regard we only have our own testimony to go by.
There has to be a level of surrender.

 

[Faither]

I guess in this regard we only have our own testimony to go by.
There has to be a level of surrender.

He is a covenant making God, He wants to make a covenant with us, a contract.

Would it be shocking to you if the Greek word "pisteuo" is defined as , "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender" was the word used in our NT 248 times?

This place we are at right now, is so important. The start of the Salvation process. And yes your absolutely correct, surrendering to Him is the only thing available to all people through out history at this point in the process.

Even my Stanford level teacher of 30 years got it wrong. He taught, "to start a relationship with Christ, we grab hold of a promise out of Gods Word, hang our body on it, no matter what the circumstances around us look like, we continue to hang on till death if need be , waking up on the other side still hanging on." Although this sounds awesome, it can't happen that way, because Gods Word and His promises are not ours yet.

The act of surrendering our life and will to Christ, and making decisions every day all day that are showing God we genuinely have surrendered our life and will to Him, is the "pisteuo" that is used 248 times in the NT that was mistranslated "believe, believer, and believing." True pisteuo, is a verb, an action word. Pisteuo is an act ( surrendering our life and will to Him daily, with daily decisions supporting that fact), based upon a belief ( That God or some greater power out there is trying to have a relationship with me), sustained by confidense ( i'm following through with making daily real life impactful decisions to make the relationship better).

Can you see the difference between what i'm presenting, verses starting a relationship with Christ by "believing in His Words"? I 'm trying to show, that although "belief and believing" are one third of Pisteuo the church world is on a completely wrong path to start a relationship that results in having "the Spirit of Christ".

Are you still, with me?

 

[Faither]

He is a covenant making God, He wants to make a covenant with us, a contract.

Would it be shocking to you if the Greek word "pisteuo" is defined as , "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender" was the word used in our NT 248 times?

This place we are at right now, is so important. The start of the Salvation process. And yes your absolutely correct, surrendering to Him is the only thing available to all people through out history at this point in the process.

Even my Stanford level teacher of 30 years got it wrong. He taught, "to start a relationship with Christ, we grab hold of a promise out of Gods Word, hang our body on it, no matter what the circumstances around us look like, we continue to hang on till death if need be , waking up on the other side still hanging on." Although this sounds awesome, it can't happen that way, because Gods Word and His promises are not ours yet.

The act of surrendering our life and will to Christ, and making decisions every day all day that are showing God we genuinely have surrendered our life and will to Him, is the "pisteuo" that is used 248 times in the NT that was mistranslated "believe, believer, and believing." True pisteuo, is a verb, an action word. Pisteuo is an act ( surrendering our life and will to Him daily, with daily decisions supporting that fact), based upon a belief ( That God or some greater power out there is trying to have a relationship with me), sustained by confidense ( i'm following through with making daily real life impactful decisions to make the relationship better).

Can you see the difference between what i'm presenting, verses starting a relationship with Christ by "believing in His Words"? I 'm trying to show, that although "belief and believing" are one third of Pisteuo the church world is on a completely wrong path to start a relationship that results in having "the Spirit of Christ".

Are you still, with me?

Do you understand a little better why i'm shouting from the roof tops, this mistranslation of pisteuo is devastating to millions of people?

 

[andyc]

Do you understand a little better why i'm shouting from the roof tops, this mistranslation of pisteuo is devastating to millions of people?

Yes I think so, but I'll digest what you said in the previous post later. I'm at a restaurant at the moment with a friend.
Terrific subject this. Are you questioning a knowledge based salvation where things like repentance are taken for granted, or not properly understood because the word of God is not impacting the heart?

I was brought up in a Pentecostal church, and I believed for 21 years that Jesus died for me, but I wasn't born again. I had a knowledge passed on to me, but not the personal born again experience.

 

[Faither]

Yes I think so, but I'll digest what you said in the previous post later. I'm at a restaurant at the moment with a friend.
Terrific subject this. Are you questioning a knowledge based salvation where things like repentance are taken for granted, or not properly understood because the word of God is not impacting the heart?

I was brought up in a Pentecostal church, and I believed for 21 years that Jesus died for me, but I wasn't born again. I had a knowledge passed on to me, but not the personal born again experience.

Yes, thats close but not addressing the magnitude of the problem .

Lets stay here at the start of our Salvation journey or process for a while.

If i'm at this beginning point and i start by claiming all of Gods promises , what would happen?

Take you time Andy, this is just the beginning of the conversation if you can continue to be honest. I'm blown away with your honesty so far.

 

[Faither]

Yes I think so, but I'll digest what you said in the previous post later. I'm at a restaurant at the moment with a friend.
Terrific subject this. Are you questioning a knowledge based salvation where things like repentance are taken for granted, or not properly understood because the word of God is not impacting the heart?

I was brought up in a Pentecostal church, and I believed for 21 years that Jesus died for me, but I wasn't born again. I had a knowledge passed on to me, but not the personal born again experience.

I think i'm questioning most of the Salvation doctrines in the churches today.

 

[andyc]

Yes, thats close but not addressing the magnitude of the problem .

Lets stay here at the start of our Salvation journey or process for a while.

If i'm at this beginning point and i start by claiming all of Gods promises , what would happen?

Take you time Andy, this is just the beginning of the conversation if you can continue to be honest. I'm blown away with your honesty so far.

Well, obviously, the word of God preached would be vague to anyone not born again. There would require a prompting of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction on the heart.

 

[Faither]

Well, obviously, the word of God preached would be vague to anyone not born again. There would require a prompting of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction on the heart.

Lets say for the sake of argument that the drawing of the Father and the prompting of the Holy Spirit are one in the same.

We've both laid out the groundwork to this question . Can a person, drawn by the Father, prompted by the Holy Spirit, in the state of just starting their walk like we've discussed, claim any of Gods promises in His Word ?

 

[Faither]

Well, obviously, the word of God preached would be vague to anyone not born again. There would require a prompting of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction on the heart.

Can someone starting their walk with Christ, "believe" in a promise in Gods Word and receive the Spirit of Christ?

 

[andyc]

Can someone starting their walk with Christ, "believe" in a promise in Gods Word and receive the Spirit of Christ?

Yes. Because at this point a person is persuaded by the gospel message, and so the next step is to believe it.

 

[Faither]

Yes. Because at this point a person is persuaded by the gospel message, and so the next step is to believe it.

Where did i loose you? We both agreed that at the start of the Salvation journey because the Spirit of Christ , Christ, and His Words (promises) are not ours, we can't claim them. Rom 8:9

Also we agreed that as the result of Gods Word not being ours at the start, we are in the same state as those who never heard Gods Word or read it.

Now were back to believing in Gods Word to receive the Holy Spirit, i lost you some where.

 

[andyc]

Where did i loose you? We both agreed that at the start of the Salvation journey because the Spirit of Christ , Christ, and His Words (promises) are not ours, we can't claim them. Rom 8:9

Well it depends what the promise is. If we're talking about salvation and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, we believe before we have it.
Lets use examples from scripture.....

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Like I said earlier, the word of God brings hope, the Spirit ads conviction, and in this situation, salvation is ours to claim.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that the turning from self to Christ by faith, leads to the receiving of the Holy Spirit?

Also we agreed that as the result of Gods Word not being ours at the start, we are in the same state as those who never heard Gods Word or read it.

Now were back to believing in Gods Word to receive the Holy Spirit, i lost you some where.

A person cannot understand spiritual truths and pray for things, coming to the Father as a Son etc, but salvation itself is based on hearing the gospel which offers hope, conviction by the Spirit, and then our response is to believe.