Atheism died in the 20th century

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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"Thanks" have SOOOOO many reasons why they can exist, and perhaps rarely or never against the 'other guy.' Sometimes I imagine they are. In this cases, I thanked him for bringing something to mind as well as a prior rep. :e4e:

Both of you have a free flowing respect for scripture with a mild Calvy bend. I enjoy discussion with both of you and may have been goading both of you for such.

But... it would have only been goading If I had posted ... Evil.Grin.<(I)>

Oops... perhaps I did.

All blessings in Him,

EE

:e4e:
 
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Lon

Well-known member
The upshot is that you couldn't give a specific set of Christian values that are distinctively Christian. That days a lot about your belief that Christian values are superior to mine as an atheist, doesn't it?
:chuckle: Not only 'could' 'did.' Loving God is distinctly Christian, and I brought it up. Others? Yep. I started with that one.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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...but one that is just as likely at giving cheap presents (why did I get an appendix likely to inflame, burst and kill me??) as at lighting the fire and throwing people in after it has climbed down the chimney!?

Stuart

One question of a chain designed to hang.... aka... loaded...

What is the difference between a dictatorship and government that is a republic?
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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AND!!!! (be careful about repping me, Nikolai might feel subconscious!) :chuckle: :e4e: :)

Rotfl!!!

I would rep Nik... but... I don't want to ever see him become half as smug you. If I hadn't met someone almost as smug as me... I would be worried... so... that's the logic on some level.

:chuckle:
 
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Town Heretic

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There are more people who do not believe in any afterlife, than there are atheists today.
Which is sadder than a box full of crackers for Christmas...unless you're starving, of course...or really like crackers. :think: So, mostly parrots and famine victims then.
 

Stuu

New member
When children were invited and present at the 'naked parade' it was not stimulating family values, individual and sexual values. Adult self-interested values. Ask that mayor when the last time he had a parade for children. Didn't happen.
Well, I'm not going to defend him, and it looks like you won't have him as mayor after November anyway. I'm still struggling to see any valid point to your argument. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. One conservative slams him for a lack of 'family-based' activities or else another berates him for wasting public money on children's parades. There are children's parades happening in Seattle, after all.

Public naked events are held internationally, obviously not in islamic countries, so perhaps you would like Washington State to be more like one of those. Naturist groups take their children with them to spend time (away from the public gaze, for good reason) naked all summer, which they would claim is one of the healthiest family-based activities there is, so you must be objecting to the particular people who turn up to be naked in public.

I think the principle is that having a gay mayor should be as family-friendly as having any kind of mayor. Perhaps your current mayor isn't the right man for the job.

Yeah. Atheism is a fairly self-serving position and philosophy. It really doesn't have at its core, the well-being of the rest of mankind. You poster children on TOL attest to that fact.
And what exactly is the 'position and philosophy' of atheism, in your opinion? Atheism is only one single belief: there are no gods. It's expressed in different ways, but that is all atheists have in common. It's not a philosophy at all. We are all self-serving, it's human nature.

But did your nose start to grow once you started typing the bit about not having the well-being rest of the rest of mankind as a concern?? Once you have read even some of the writings of Saul of Tarsus, and the gospel writers (whoever they were) you would have to conclude that christianity is the most bitterly self-serving philosophy ever devised. I don't think it matters how self-serving I might appear to you, christianity trumps me for that just about every time.

You still haven't given anything that should be feared of an atheist president. But as I claimed elsewhere, all those presidents who really were atheists haven't destroyed your fantastically devoted country, have they.
There you go. It is a value of 70% or more of us. So, by virtue, the atheist president is isolated and doesn't represent us or our values well.
So you can't complain about your conditions in Seattle, where 80% vote Democrat and there is a very high average level of education and atheism. You are being represented really well, aren't you! So the tyranny of the majority cuts both ways, right?

You haven't said why there needs to be prayer breakfasts. Is it just a fear you have of what might happen if they stop? Actually what might happen?

For me, a personal touch. Off-topic, but I wonder why others do it. For me, it is used to be a bit more 'human' to the one I'm talking to. I wonder, if for others, it is because of letter writing, or to remind a poster who they are talking to (that serves a place on TOL too, I've been mistaken for another a few times).
Yes, letter writing probably gives it the form. I don't share much private information openly online but I tend to think that by signing off with my real name I am at least standing personally by what I write.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Not hardly... the wicked aren't what "church... brick and mortar" define. God's actual "smiting" has always been towards people that actually practiced child saccrifice and such. You can quote the hardcore verses, but if you tell me that we have done a good job with being in charge... you're stunted.

We get some stuff right... but War, famine and the like occur because humanity has a constant track record of inhumanity.

The humble... self sacrificing God that gives us freedom and breath to even defy Him is the One that can and Will sort this mess out. When the visitation of the sword occurs... it will be just and with Love. It will be by the hearts Judge of judges. The very source of life within all living things knows how to sort all living things.

Did you ever watch Braveheart? Would you have liked the movie if William Wallice was a pacifist that said... "Scotland... be at peace! England can have our freedom, rape our daughters and kill our sons... but we mustn't fight back!" ?!?
The things you describe are exactly what you would expect if humans had evolved by natural selection. So either you can be pessimistic and wait around for some kind of saviour figure, say, or you can be optimistic and acknowledge humanity is far from perfect but at our best we are surprisingly good, and aspiration to that is what really counts. We need to make things better ourselves because waiting for the last 2000 years doesn't seem to have improved things, and indeed some of those keenest for the saviour have made things markedly worse.

So sorry, but there is no room for the dogmas of christianity in that optimistic view because christianity is cast in terms of simplistic kneejerks not the complex thought and nuance that is needed. I need not mention that islam and judaism haven't got much to add either.

You're purposefully trying to make God out to be an A-hole, ...
I don't think that needs me to do much at all.

...but you refuse to see the full picture. Shall I begin taking you out of context now?
I can only approve of your taking scripture out of context.

Stuartart
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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The things you describe are exactly what you would expect if humans had evolved by natural selection. So either you can be pessimistic and wait around for some kind of saviour figure, say, or you can be optimistic and acknowledge humanity is far from perfect but at our best we are surprisingly good, and aspiration to that is what really counts. We need to make things better ourselves because waiting for the last 2000 years doesn't seem to have improved things, and indeed some of those keenest for the saviour have made things markedly worse.

So sorry, but there is no room for the dogmas of christianity in that optimistic view because christianity is cast in terms of simplistic kneejerks not the complex thought and nuance that is needed. I need not mention that islam and judaism haven't got much to add either.


I don't think that needs me to do much at all.


I can only approve of your taking scripture out of context.

Stuartart

Within this quote you have confirmed your hatred for God... and your faith in Darwinism to hide it.

What can be said from here? Your mind and Spirit lack the depth, honesty and nuance to converse further. You... Stuu... are deceiving yourself and savvy to claiming to know scripture...

Nope.

 

Stuu

New member
Within this quote you have confirmed your hatred for God...
I don't believe the god in question exists, so hatred would be absurd.

and your faith in Darwinism to hide it.
I don't have faith in anything, especially Darwinian natural selection. As soon as a better explanation for the diversity of life comes along, Darwin's theory dies. Do you have a better explanation for all the evidence we have? I'd guess not.

What can be said from here? Your mind and Spirit lack the depth, honesty and nuance to converse further.
All right, bye then.

You... Stuu... are deceiving yourself and savvy to claiming to know scripture...
Oh, hi again. Please tell me how I have scripture wrong.

Stuart
 

exminister

Well-known member
Ask the native south Americans. They wore clothes and had magnificent cities. The Spanish, on behalf of king and cross destroyed the cultures and the cities.

How come the Europeans brought diseases that killed native Americans and not the other way around? Were the Europeans dirtier, more disease ridden people?
 

Jonahdog

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How come the Europeans brought diseases that killed native Americans and not the other way around? Were the Europeans dirtier, more disease ridden people?

That is a really good question. Dont know. I'll ask my MD daughter who specializes in infectious disease.
 

Town Heretic

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I don't believe the god in question exists, so hatred would be absurd.
Hatred is almost always absurd, but it's also fairly human. People live for and hate ideas all the time. Communism, capitalism, theocracy, democracy, to name a few. You have to recognize that you can't say the idea you disdain or hate (enough to spend a decent amount of what you strongly suspect is a finite and diminishing amount of time that you have to exist in opposing) isn't in fact true. Couple that with people you meet claiming experiential truth and furthering the cause of that thought...it's a fairly strong explanation for your activity and the nature of it.

I don't have faith in anything
You likely have faith in all sorts of things. Your faith may be based in experiences of various sorts that cannot confirm the truth of a thing but strongly support it, but that's life.

Oh, hi again. Please tell me how I have scripture wrong.
Talking about scripture with you would be as pointless as talking about aerodynamic principles to a member of a cargo cult.
 

Stuu

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You have to recognize that you can't say the idea you disdain or hate (enough to spend a decent amount of what you strongly suspect is a finite and diminishing amount of time that you have to exist in opposing) isn't in fact true.
It's not true that there are any gods.
Couple that with people you meet claiming experiential truth and furthering the cause of that thought...it's a fairly strong explanation for your activity and the nature of it.
Those claiming 'experiential truth' are deluded. You can make conclusions about what is most likely to be true based on your observations, but even that must be treated very carefully. Those who claim they know a god exists because they felt a spirit, or saw an apparition, or can't explain the diversity of life on earth are almost certainly deluding themselves. These are the lessons of science, which gives us the highest quality of knowledge we possess, because of those skeptical attitudes.

You likely have faith in all sorts of things. Your faith may be based in experiences of various sorts that cannot confirm the truth of a thing but strongly support it, but that's life.
I do things on trust, but that involves a relationship which is based on evidence. I can't think of a single thing I do that requires faith. I have thought about it, and discussed it with other ToLers in the past, and they couldn't think of anything either.
Talking about scripture with you would be as pointless as talking about aerodynamic principles to a member of a cargo cult.
You're still waiting for that special cargo to arrive then, the one that hasn't been back for 2000 years despite all the air traffic control towers and attempts at radio contact, er, I mean churches and praying and stuff.

Stuart
 

Town Heretic

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It's not true that there are any gods.
A statement you can't make rationally. And if the basis for your complaint is irrational you're no better (by your own light) than someone who believes there are.

Those claiming 'experiential truth' are deluded.
No more objective or true than your attempt at negation.

You can make conclusions about what is most likely to be true based on your observations
About many things, certainly, and even then you have to allow, rationally, that your observations might lead you to a mistaken conclusion.

Those who claim they know a god exists because they felt a spirit, or saw an apparition, or can't explain the diversity of life on earth are almost certainly deluding themselves.
Without even approaching the standard for your "almost" its utterance, metaphorically, unhorses your initial answer and makes my point.

These are the lessons of science, which gives us the highest quality of knowledge we possess, because of those skeptical attitudes.
Science is mute on the question of God. Empiricism is necessarily mute on it. Like trying to measure joy with a ruler. Simply outside its function and methodological capacity.

I do things on trust, but that involves a relationship which is based on evidence.
Evidence is often experience. There are likely any number of things you don't understand that function daily in your living and going about. You take those things on a measure of faith. How much you know or don't understand about them speaks to the measure.

I can't think of a single thing I do that requires faith.
Making plans, for one. Any number. If you try harder you'll see it.

I have thought about it, and discussed it with other ToLers in the past, and they couldn't think of anything either.
Then all of you should have thought about it more.

You're still waiting for that special cargo to arrive then
No, he arrived for me years ago in the way that matters to me.

Meanwhile your existence clock keeps ticking down and here you are.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
How come the Europeans brought diseases that killed native Americans and not the other way around? Were the Europeans dirtier, more disease ridden people?

The Americas were cut off from the rest of the world for the better part of 10,000 years prior to Columbus' "discovery" of the New World. The populations of Africa, Asia, Europe, and even the Pacific had all traded and mixed for thousands of years, and thus had developed at least partial immunities to most illnesses around.

In the New World, smallpox, malaria, certain flu strains, and on and on and on had never been encountered by a single native individual. They had 0 immunity, and therefore a bottlenecking happened when they were exposed: most individuals died off, while the ones that survived were hardier and more disease resistant than the ones that had died, and they passed on their genes
 

exminister

Well-known member
Evidence is often experience. There are likely any number of things you don't understand that function daily in your living and going about. You take those things on a measure of faith. How much you know or don't understand about them speaks to the measure.


Making plans, for one. Any number. If you try harder you'll see it.


Then all of you should have thought about it more.


No, he arrived for me years ago in the way that matters to me.

Meanwhile your existence clock keeps ticking down and here you are.


I am always interested in the topic of faith, but many (not sure you are included in that TH) blend expectations and faith, which are not the same. Expecting my car to start in the morning is not faith but expectation. Faith is believing in things unseen and many times contrary to evidence. The stories of faith bear that out. In this life the faithful go on the promise and not the expectation the reward will ever be here and now. As Jesus plainly said His Kingdom is not of this world. The prosperity gospel is a false gospel.
 

Jonahdog

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The Americas were cut off from the rest of the world for the better part of 10,000 years prior to Columbus' "discovery" of the New World. The populations of Africa, Asia, Europe, and even the Pacific had all traded and mixed for thousands of years, and thus had developed at least partial immunities to most illnesses around.

In the New World, smallpox, malaria, certain flu strains, and on and on and on had never been encountered by a single native individual. They had 0 immunity, and therefore a bottlenecking happened when they were exposed: most individuals died off, while the ones that survived were hardier and more disease resistant than the ones that had died, and they passed on their genes

sounds good to me
 

Lon

Well-known member
But did your nose start to grow once you started typing the bit about not having the well-being rest of the rest of mankind as a concern?? Once you have read even some of the writings of Saul of Tarsus, and the gospel writers (whoever they were) you would have to conclude that christianity is the most bitterly self-serving philosophy ever devised. I don't think it matters how self-serving I might appear to you, christianity trumps me for that just about every time.
It was my last attempt to have a normal conversation with you. Bye now.
 
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