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The Trinity
The Trinity
I am interested in a one-on-one debate regarding whether or not the Bible teaches the Trinity. I was once a Trinitarian, but now I am not. I was not persuaded to abandon my Trinitarian background by any "heretical" movement. I actually began to study apologetics and sought to defend the doctrine against "heresy." After a time, I became frustrated with the doctrine for several reasons. Since that time, I have written a book on the subject, and now I would like to discuss the matter would someone else. I would appriciate it if I was not harassed or called inappropriate names.
Trust me, I would not have renounced a comfortable "orthodox" view for an uncomfortable "heretical" view if my objective studies had not led me to do so. I have examined the arguments for both sides and I have compared everything with Scripture. I am satisfied with my conclusion, but if I can be shown to be wrong, then I will willingly return to my former belief.
I find the Scripture to teach that the Father is God Almighty only. Jesus is the Son of God, our Messiah. And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (His mind and power at work).
If there is anyone out there willing to debate intelligently, I would appriciate that. Thank you.
In grace, BJ Brown
The Trinity
I am interested in a one-on-one debate regarding whether or not the Bible teaches the Trinity. I was once a Trinitarian, but now I am not. I was not persuaded to abandon my Trinitarian background by any "heretical" movement. I actually began to study apologetics and sought to defend the doctrine against "heresy." After a time, I became frustrated with the doctrine for several reasons. Since that time, I have written a book on the subject, and now I would like to discuss the matter would someone else. I would appriciate it if I was not harassed or called inappropriate names.
Trust me, I would not have renounced a comfortable "orthodox" view for an uncomfortable "heretical" view if my objective studies had not led me to do so. I have examined the arguments for both sides and I have compared everything with Scripture. I am satisfied with my conclusion, but if I can be shown to be wrong, then I will willingly return to my former belief.
I find the Scripture to teach that the Father is God Almighty only. Jesus is the Son of God, our Messiah. And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (His mind and power at work).
If there is anyone out there willing to debate intelligently, I would appriciate that. Thank you.
In grace, BJ Brown
Gavin
New member
I would be up for a debate on the trinity, if no one else wants it. My view, which I believe is fully representative of the orthodox view, is that the ONE God eternally co-exists in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God.
I will try to refrain from any name-calling, as well.
I will try to refrain from any name-calling, as well.
Gavin
New member
Dear BJ,
If you want to do an official battle royale concerning it, you can read the rules here. http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2629
In any case, it will need to be approved by Knight first. Probably it will be suggested that you engage in a little informal debate before you do an official one, although you seem to have thought through the issue pretty thoroughly already!
I must warn you that over the holidays I travel to my parents house and do not have access to a computer. The earliest I could begin a debate on this is around January 10.
Also, if you don't mind, could you please specify exactly what you believe about Jesus. Was he a created being?
And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."
By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
And by the "the triune nature of God" I simply mean the historical definition of the trinity. The one God co-eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost.
Can you confirm this?
Blessings.
If you want to do an official battle royale concerning it, you can read the rules here. http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2629
In any case, it will need to be approved by Knight first. Probably it will be suggested that you engage in a little informal debate before you do an official one, although you seem to have thought through the issue pretty thoroughly already!
I must warn you that over the holidays I travel to my parents house and do not have access to a computer. The earliest I could begin a debate on this is around January 10.
Also, if you don't mind, could you please specify exactly what you believe about Jesus. Was he a created being?
And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."
By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
And by the "the triune nature of God" I simply mean the historical definition of the trinity. The one God co-eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost.
Can you confirm this?
Blessings.
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C
cirisme
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Are we finally gonna get another great BR?
This will be great!
This will be great!
Debate on the Trinity
Debate on the Trinity
Gavin, I can be patient. I too will be visiting family during that time, so that is convenient for me as well.
As far as "informal" debating goes, I have placed my argument before several interested Trinitarian friends (most of them Bible students) as well as discused the matter with some more established Trinitarians. I'm actually well versed in formal debate (six years speech and debate in middle school and high school; I was also the president for a time). I feel adequately prepared for a "Battle Royale" debate on the Trinity (as defined by the Athanasian Creed). All I lack is a firm understanding of the rules (I can obtain that well before January).
After careful consideration, I have found the Bible to teach that the Father alone is the one God of Israel (YHWH). His Son Jesus had no antenatal existence and was in fact a created being just as I am. In spite of his total humanity, Jesus was chosen by God before the foundation of the world to act as the teacher, the prophet, the high priest, the Davidic king, the savior, and the sacrifice. Jesus was God's plenipotentiary on earth (similar to the angel mentioned in Exodus 23:20-26). This means that Jesus, as God's representative, could act as God without being God (compare Ex. 3:2 with the rest of the passage). (NOTE: By quoting Exodus, I am only making a comparison between the angelic representatives of God and the Son of man as a representative of God- I am by no means equating Jesus with the angels referred to in such passages)
The Holy Spirit is God's mind and power at work. It is not a separate cognitive and conscious person.
This is my conclusion from my studies. In grace, BJ Brown
Debate on the Trinity
Gavin, I can be patient. I too will be visiting family during that time, so that is convenient for me as well.
As far as "informal" debating goes, I have placed my argument before several interested Trinitarian friends (most of them Bible students) as well as discused the matter with some more established Trinitarians. I'm actually well versed in formal debate (six years speech and debate in middle school and high school; I was also the president for a time). I feel adequately prepared for a "Battle Royale" debate on the Trinity (as defined by the Athanasian Creed). All I lack is a firm understanding of the rules (I can obtain that well before January).
After careful consideration, I have found the Bible to teach that the Father alone is the one God of Israel (YHWH). His Son Jesus had no antenatal existence and was in fact a created being just as I am. In spite of his total humanity, Jesus was chosen by God before the foundation of the world to act as the teacher, the prophet, the high priest, the Davidic king, the savior, and the sacrifice. Jesus was God's plenipotentiary on earth (similar to the angel mentioned in Exodus 23:20-26). This means that Jesus, as God's representative, could act as God without being God (compare Ex. 3:2 with the rest of the passage). (NOTE: By quoting Exodus, I am only making a comparison between the angelic representatives of God and the Son of man as a representative of God- I am by no means equating Jesus with the angels referred to in such passages)
The Holy Spirit is God's mind and power at work. It is not a separate cognitive and conscious person.
This is my conclusion from my studies. In grace, BJ Brown
Gavin
New member
Thanks for your patience, BJ.
So can you confirm this?
NB - I am not using the athanasian creed to define the trinity, I am simply using the historical definition as defined above. I believe the athanasian creed is in harmony with the definition I have provided, but I just wanted to make this clear so the terms will be clearly defined going into the debate. Does this resolution sound good to you?
Thanks.
So can you confirm this?
NB - I am not using the athanasian creed to define the trinity, I am simply using the historical definition as defined above. I believe the athanasian creed is in harmony with the definition I have provided, but I just wanted to make this clear so the terms will be clearly defined going into the debate. Does this resolution sound good to you?
Thanks.
I'm sorry...
I'm sorry...
I forgot to answer one or two of your questions.
You asked:
And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."
By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
My reply:
"Scripture teaches the triune nature of God" is perfect, with you posing as the affirmative and I as the negative.
I honestly believe that the doctrine of the Trinity CAN in fact "at least" be deduced from the Scriptures (as there are so many studious people who are Trinitarians). However, doing so would forsake hemeneutic principles, the Hebraic milieu of the Scriptures, and the true definitions of certain Hebrew and Greek words (as translations are mere interpretations).
And I do find the Bible to be the only reliable source for biblical doctrine. In any case, this information would be unnecessary to our debate since our agreed resolution is "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God;" in other words, our question is whether or not Scripture alone teaches the triune nature of God- appeals to church tradition, etc., are superfluous.
I'm sorry...
I forgot to answer one or two of your questions.
You asked:
And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."
By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
My reply:
"Scripture teaches the triune nature of God" is perfect, with you posing as the affirmative and I as the negative.
I honestly believe that the doctrine of the Trinity CAN in fact "at least" be deduced from the Scriptures (as there are so many studious people who are Trinitarians). However, doing so would forsake hemeneutic principles, the Hebraic milieu of the Scriptures, and the true definitions of certain Hebrew and Greek words (as translations are mere interpretations).
And I do find the Bible to be the only reliable source for biblical doctrine. In any case, this information would be unnecessary to our debate since our agreed resolution is "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God;" in other words, our question is whether or not Scripture alone teaches the triune nature of God- appeals to church tradition, etc., are superfluous.
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