Armed terrorists occupy federal building - won't leave until their demands are met

[kmoney]

Given the rallies in the town and some of the rhetoric, I don't get the impression that the Hammonds showed up for jail the other day out of owning up to their decision to gamble on a jury trial, but instead did so out of fear of additional time.

:idunno: Maybe.

I don't understand your point. You do understand that you can commit arson without poaching, right? If the Hammonds just walked on to the refuge and lit a building on fire, that would still be arson even though they didn't poach any wildlife.

I'm not trying to say that poaching and arson are linked. I was contrasting that with the Hammonds' story. Arson involves a deliberate fire to destroy something. On one side you have the Hammonds saying that they started the fires to back burn existing fires and to destroy invasive plants. On the other side you have the government which I think accepts some of their explanation but also adds in poaching. Arson would only apply if the poaching story is true because they'd be doing it to cover up the evidence. It would be deliberate burning for the purpose of destroying federal property and cover up their crime.

Now, the lack of poaching doesn't mean they did nothing wrong and should get off with no punishment. They could still be punished for disobeying a burn ban, being reckless, endangering firefighters.

Also, the "terrorism" label just comes from the title of the law they were prosecuted under. The prosecutor never referred to the Hammonds as terrorists or anything like that. But the actual law (CLICK HERE) specifically covers this case, as you can see...

(1) Whoever maliciously damages or destroys, or attempts to damage or destroy, by means of fire or an explosive, any building, vehicle, or other personal or real property in whole or in part owned or possessed by, or leased to, the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or any institution or organization receiving Federal financial assistance, shall be imprisoned for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, fined under this title, or both.​

Sure, but shouldn't the name of the bill give some context to what the intent is? And that context would be terrorism, not just any fire started for any reason. I wouldn't expect every section within the bill to reassert that it's about terrorism. I suppose I wouldn't put it past our government to craft a bill that is titled about terrorism but has unrelated things inside.

That's exactly what they did...they maliciously used fire to destroy federal property. There were independent eyewitnesses and their own relative testified against them. So when the US attorney got this case, this was exactly the law that applied. But, he offered the Hammonds a way out of this and they refused. Now they're in federal prison for 4 years (they'd already served 1).

Well, that's what they were convicted of doing.

And I'm not even absolutely saying that a 5 year sentence is wrong. Perhaps 5 years is reasonable for what they did, but it isn't based in terrorism or even arson. It would be based in the severity of starting fires against the rules and recklessly endangering firefighters and it causing destruction to both private and public land.

 

[kmoney]

I take no position on the conflict between the Hammonds and the BLM. I simply don't know enough about it, and the versions of events are so radically divergent depending on who you ask that I can't come to a strong conclusion. But...

What I am sure of is that the proper venue to address this situation is a court of law. The Hammonds themselves have said that the Bundy-lead publicity stunt isn't representing them. And while it may well be that a five-year prison sentence is too harsh for what they did, what you're seeing here is a case of mandatory minimum sentencing. And yes, it produces egregious injustices. But, it is far from the worst case of it, and I find it curious that the Bundys pick this case and not any of the other worthy ones to protest. It leads me to suspect that this is more about getting back in the headlines than anything else.

It certainly isn't only about the Hammonds and their punishment. It's not even primarily about that. Their primary (stated) cause appears to be the larger issue of government owned lands and how that affects ranchers. The Hammonds are just the current example.

 

[rexlunae]

It certainly isn't only about the Hammonds and their punishment. It's not even primarily about that. Their primary (stated) cause appears to be the larger issue of government owned lands and how that affects ranchers. The Hammonds are just the current example.

Yes. I think it's an awfully silly gripe, which mostly seems to be borne of conservation skepticism, but I have to wonder, would they rather the federal government conserve species and nature preserves by imposing rules on private land?

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm not trying to say that poaching and arson are linked. I was contrasting that with the Hammonds' story. Arson involves a deliberate fire to destroy something. On one side you have the Hammonds saying that they started the fires to back burn existing fires and to destroy invasive plants. On the other side you have the government which I think accepts some of their explanation but also adds in poaching. Arson would only apply if the poaching story is true because they'd be doing it to cover up the evidence. It would be deliberate burning for the purpose of destroying federal property and cover up their crime.

Given the facts, eye witnesses, and convictions, I see no reason at all to believe the Hammonds' story.

Now, the lack of poaching doesn't mean they did nothing wrong and should get off with no punishment. They could still be punished for disobeying a burn ban, being reckless, endangering firefighters.

I don't know this, but my guess would be those are the sorts of charges they were offered a chance to plead guilty to, but refused.

Sure, but shouldn't the name of the bill give some context to what the intent is?

I don't think everything covered in the Patriot Act is patriotic, and likewise I don't think everything covered in this act is terrorism.

Well, that's what they were convicted of doing.

Yes they were, in large part based on the testimony of eye witnesses, including one of their own family members.

And I'm not even absolutely saying that a 5 year sentence is wrong. Perhaps 5 years is reasonable for what they did, but it isn't based in terrorism or even arson. It would be based in the severity of starting fires against the rules and recklessly endangering firefighters and it causing destruction to both private and public land.

They started a fire to cover up another crime. That's arson.

 

[brewmama]

The only possible way this is fair is if all the fires started by government agents, such as the Cerro Grande Fire, (and we may as well throw in the EPA Animas River contamination from the mine in southwest Colorado) are all litigated and the perps thrown in prison.

 

[Jose Fly]

The only possible way this is fair is if all the fires started by government agents, such as the Cerro Grande Fire, (and we may as well throw in the EPA Animas River contamination from the mine in southwest Colorado) are all litigated and the perps thrown in prison.

Were those fires started to cover up other crimes?

 

[brewmama]

Were those fires started to cover up other crimes?

Neither was the Oregon fire. I don't know where you get that.

 

[Jose Fly]

Neither was the Oregon fire. I don't know where you get that.

From the eye witnesses, the Hammonds' own family member, and the conviction of the jury.

Where did you get the idea that it wasn't?

 

[Jose Fly]

UPDATE: Tearful militant discovers friend drank away donation money

A heartbroken militiaman announced that one of his buddies had walked off the Oregon nature preserve they had overtaken and had holed up in a local motel to drink away donation money.

Joe Oshaugnessy, an Arizona militiaman, has been actively seeking volunteers through social media to join the occupation of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

But his friends tearfully announced that Oshaugnessy, who is known as “Capt. O,” had left the refuge Wednesday and was instead staying at a motel nearby — as some others associated with the militants have apparently been doing, according to sources.

And apparently....

Some of the militants have reportedly been spotted eating at area restaurants during the standoff, as well.

And further...

at least one of them, Brian “Booda” Cavalier, failed to return after a newspaper report revealed he had lied about serving in the U.S. Marines.

Quite a group they got there. I think I now understand why federal law enforcement stayed away and didn't confront them. They knew these guys were such morons, eventually that fact would come out.

I wonder if when the Sheriff met with them yesterday he told them "You guys know you're a national joke, right?" :chuckle:

 

[Jose Fly]

UPDATE 2: Fights Break Out in Bundy Camp

BURNS -- Violence broke out at the Bundy compound Wednesday night between its militant occupants and members of an outside group whose leader says he wants to get women and children out of the compound.

Lewis Arthur, who leads a group called Veterans on Patrol and calls himself an anti-violence patriot, arrived Wednesday afternoon with a small crew.

By Wednesday night, one of Arthur's three-person crew was in the hospital, his eye blackened from a punch to the face....

...Arther and his group entered the compound Wednesday night, hoping to convince a female acquaintance to abandon the standoff.

That's when the trouble started.

Arthur said Cooper punched him in the back of the head, then attacked his comrade, who goes by the name of J Dog. The group retreated, and J Dog went to the hospital.

This just gets better and better. I'm kinda hoping they don't leave soon. The entertainment value is off the charts!

 

[TomO]

Quite a group they got there. I think I now understand why federal law enforcement stayed away and didn't confront them. They knew these guys were such morons, eventually that fact would come out.

Well....The Feds are no fireballs in the brain Dept. themselves. I think it's more the fact that they didn't want another Ruby Ridge or Waco. There is no reason to risk that considering that the place has no real vital purpose, is in the middle of nowhere, and easily isolated

This stuff is just a bonus for them. :chuckle:

 

[kmoney]

UPDATE 2: Fights Break Out in Bundy Camp



This just gets better and better. I'm kinda hoping they don't leave soon. The entertainment value is off the charts!

I've seen some memes about requesting snacks that are amusing, :chuckle:

 

[Nick M]

So how many people have been murdered or wounded by these armed terrorists in this standoff?

Since you faggots on the left can't answer, tell me how many shots have been fired so far.

 

[kmoney]

I don't think everything covered in the Patriot Act is patriotic, and likewise I don't think everything covered in this act is terrorism.

lain:

 

[kmoney]

Yes. I think it's an awfully silly gripe, which mostly seems to be borne of conservation skepticism, but I have to wonder, would they rather the federal government conserve species and nature preserves by imposing rules on private land?

They don't want conservation at all.

 

[Granite]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/law-enfo...ssment--intimidation-in-oregon-230339291.html

Nice. Harassment, intimidation, destruction of property.

 

[Jose Fly]

The best characterization I've yet seen of this situation......"white privilege performance art". :chuckle:

 

[Mocking You]

UPDATE:at least one of them, Brian “Booda” Cavalier, failed to return after a newspaper report revealed he had lied about serving in the U.S. Marines.

Brian Cavalier, who is the “personal bodyguard” to Ammon Bundy has told reporters that he served in both Iraq and Afghanistan as a member of the Marines. One tiny problem: the Marine Corps has absolutely no record of him. Why might that be? Because he never enlisted in any branch.

In addition to Cavalier, Blaine Cooper also claims to be a Marine veteran. The truth, however, is much different: Cooper was on the “Delayed Entry Program” and never even went to boot camp. Guess he realized he wasn’t cut out to be a real hero so now he has to carry a gun and pretend he’s a man.

Cavalier told reporters recently:

“I’m a retired United States Marine, I can rage.”

No, you’re a pretend Marine and all you can do is lie. When confronted by the media about his false claims of military service, including what the Marines said, Cavalier nervously replied:

“That’s unfortunate that someone would say that. I’m not commenting on anything. I told you what it is.”

Busted: Oregon Militia Thugs Caught Falsely Posing As Marine Veterans

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/0...ugs-caught-falsely-posing-as-marine-veterans/

 

[Granite]

Brian Cavalier, who is the “personal bodyguard” to Ammon Bundy has told reporters that he served in both Iraq and Afghanistan as a member of the Marines. One tiny problem: the Marine Corps has absolutely no record of him. Why might that be? Because he never enlisted in any branch.

In addition to Cavalier, Blaine Cooper also claims to be a Marine veteran. The truth, however, is much different: Cooper was on the “Delayed Entry Program” and never even went to boot camp. Guess he realized he wasn’t cut out to be a real hero so now he has to carry a gun and pretend he’s a man.

Cavalier told reporters recently:

“I’m a retired United States Marine, I can rage.”

No, you’re a pretend Marine and all you can do is lie. When confronted by the media about his false claims of military service, including what the Marines said, Cavalier nervously replied:

“That’s unfortunate that someone would say that. I’m not commenting on anything. I told you what it is.”

Busted: Oregon Militia Thugs Caught Falsely Posing As Marine Veterans

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/0...ugs-caught-falsely-posing-as-marine-veterans/

There is a lot of stolen valor in these circles.

 

[Jose Fly]

Their newest member...

Among the militant members who have accessed government computers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, one is an Islamic State sympathizer and Adolph Hitler acolyte...

...Occupier David Fry said he drove from Ohio – through a blinding winter storm – to help Bundy and his supporters...

...Fry’s Google+ account shows the Ohio man regularly posts anti-Semitic, homophobic, and pro-Nazi propaganda on social media.

Fry also posts in support of ISIS.

“ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS FOR ISIS TO NUKE ISRAELHELL!” he wrote on the site Nov. 30.

When asked to explain his feelings about Israel and ISIS, Fry spoke at length of government conspiracies, plots against multiple countries, Sept. 11, court records, computer viruses on Japanese computers, Fukushima and a Jewish conspiracy against the free world that involves causing nuclear meltdowns.

“One week before Fukushima happened, an Israeli security team installing security equipment was there at Fukushima,” Fry said.

Quite the circus they've got there....complete with clowns.