ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Tambora]

it still means 'born-sinless' and is heresy against scriptures.

My use of the term is simply to show this discussion took place centuries ago and the church found the idea of being born sinless as heresy against the need of a Savior and against what the scriptures say.

Hi Lon!




Romans 7:9 KJV
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.



This scripture has had a lot of debate.
Was Paul really alive once before he knew of the law?

I think there can be a lot said about this scripture and what it means to folks.


I'll give a quick review of what I think.

I think it is an analogy of Adam before the command of the trees in the garden.
Adam was naked and thought nothing of it needing to be covered.
After the command came and he ate of the tree, his nakedness needed to be covered.

While I do not believe newborn babies are sinners, I do believe that they still die and are buried (physical death). But without the death of Christ, the grave would ever have a hold on them making a resurrection impossible and they would be stuck in the grave forever.
So I do believe a newborn can be sinless, but still needed a means to be freed from the grave.

That's the short version!

 

[Lon]

Okay... Lon... to keep this simple and as usual... I logged back on... but darn it I really didn't want to. Do aborted babies and 4 year olds that die go to hell? Think about it. GD had a point you glossed over from Galatians.

No, I don't believe so. The reason isn't because they aren't born in that condition, but rather because they have no developmental ability to know it is wrong. Jesus said "Let the little children come unto me, because the kingdom belongs to them and those like them." So, no, I don't believe one has to espouse born-sinless doctrine to avoid the problem. I believe the Lord Jesus Christ already took care of that need so we don't have to create a new or adverse doctrine to avoid what "I believe" He has already addressed.

Also... 2 Co. 3:15 has a duel theological reference that one of the two references compliment what Jerry is pointing out.

Musterion, but I know what you mean and thank you. -Lon

 

[Nang]

Hi Lon!




Romans 7:9 KJV
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.



This scripture has had a lot of debate.
Was Paul really alive once before he knew of the law?

I think there can be a lot said about this scripture and what it means to folks.


I'll give a quick review of what I think.

I think it is an analogy of Adam before the command of the trees in the garden.
Adam was naked and thought nothing of it needing to be covered.
After the command came and he ate of the tree, his nakedness needed to be covered.

While I do not believe newborn babies are sinners, I do believe that they still die and are buried (physical death). But without the death of Christ, the grave would ever have a hold on them making a resurrection impossible and they would be stuck in the grave forever.
So I do believe a newborn can be sinless, but still needed a means to be freed from the grave.

That's the short version!

#4

 

[ttruscott]

I'll have to start a thread. Pelagianism: man is born innocent and in no need of a Savior from birth. Under their theology, if we eliminated all children, there is no need for the cross by their doctrinal belief. They believe only those who eventually sin, need Christ.

IF this is true, then the GOD who wants all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4 would just kill us all as infants. Andrea Yates had it right after all and was a hero, not a villain.

 

[Nang]

No, I don't believe so. The reason isn't because they aren't born in that condition, but rather because they have no developmental ability to know it is wrong. Jesus said "Let the little children come unto me, because the kingdom belongs to them and those like them." So, no, I don't believe one has to espouse born-sinless doctrine to avoid the problem. I believe the Lord Jesus Christ already took care of that need so we don't have to create a new or adverse doctrine to avoid what "I believe" He has already addressed.
Musterion, but I know what you mean and thank you. -Lon

God has the sovereign power to save fetuses in the womb, and babies in infancy, according to His grace alone. The Reformed view is that Unconditional Election is active and effective in the womb as well as in the world at large.

Just as God is able to save mentally incompetents and coma patients . . . salvation is all from His sovereign will, choice, power, and grace.

No such thing necessary as "an age of accountability" or mental acumen to be saved. Romans 9:15-16

 

[daqq]

Seriously! The only time I ever neg repped Nang was for defending Daqq who mocked the virgin birth. I'm disgusted right now!!!

Why bring me into this when I have not even posted in this thread? As for what you said; you again show yourself a liar, and the evidence of your fruit is that of Cain. Your accusation is no different than when you accused me of "calling Jesus Satan", which was clearly a bold faced lie, and the reality is that since you claim "Jesus is YHWH", while at the same time claiming that "Jesus became Azazel" for you, you therefore by default have made the claim that the Father is Azazel; and not only that but you said that the Father is your brother, making yourself equal to the Father Almighty. And is it my fault you never read the book of Enoch? If Jude quotes Enoch, and not only quotes the writing itself but says Enoch prophesied, (attributing the quote to Enoch himself, not just "some unknown author"), and fragments from two hundred years before the advent of Messiah were recovered at Qumran; then perhaps it was not so wise for you to be running around claiming that the Father has the same name as a demon from the book of Enoch. You are a filthy-mouthed blasphemer of the Holy Spirit who hates anyone who disagrees with your own private interpretations and your own mighty will. If there is any real heretic-divider here it is you; and no man can bind you, no, not even with strong chains, O tomb dweller. :chuckle:

 

[way 2 go]

I'll have to start a thread.
Tenants of Pelagianism (they all logically tie together):

1) Man was created with a shelf-life. He would have died in the garden, regardless of sin, that is the way God made him/her.

no

2) Adam's sin (and Eve's) did not affect anyone other than himself. His children could have re-entered the Garden.

we inherited fallen flesh \nature

3) Infants do not need a Savior. They are in a state of disconnect from God 'naturally.'

born spiritually alive

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Semi-pelagianism is as follows:


3) Man, after salvation (God's help) no longer will functionally sin and he/she never needs ongoing Grace. In a sense, this 'can' be espoused by OSAS doctrine. It too, takes God out of the picture as necessary other than for his/her initially being forgiven.

In this sense, it would be an OSAS doctrine with no need for further anything. The person we are now, is who we will be forever and there is no need for tear wiping or further work. We are simply forgiven and have no need to change or be changed.

always need grace

Rom_8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

 

[Tambora]

No such thing necessary as "an age of accountability" or mental acumen to be saved. Romans 9:15-16

I agree with that for salvation.
There is no age (as in age 1, 22, 30).
But I believe there is accountability when a child commits a sin.
The sacrifices of the law were performed to cover sins that were committed by the people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:nono: You are mislabeling "Original sin" doctrine with "Total Depravity." Different topics. The former is the whole church. After that, your 'doctrine' is derivative (means not implicit, but deduced from 'your' understanding of the text). -Lon

How much longer are you going to ignore what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12?

You want to talk about anything and everything but what Paul wrote there.

If you don't have an answer just say so but please quit ignoring it.

You were born with a knowledge of good AND evil as well as born without .being spiritually alive else you'd not need to be 'born-again' called 'born of spirit.'

Where is your evidence that people are not born spiritually alive? The reason why a person must be born again is because he dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Paul was alive spiritually before he broke the law and then he died spiritually. That means that he did not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

 

[glorydaz]

That too, is one of the tenants of Pelagianism. Literally, the cure is abortion I'm not kidding, the one woman believed Pelagian doctrine from her pastor and drown her kids.

"One woman believed..." The rest of them don't even think a fertilized egg is a human being. You're going off on tangents with all this speculation concerning why people have abortions. It's selfishness, plain and simple.

I can't read it any other way: "... through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation..." Cannot.

Then I suggest you read more than that one verse in isolation.

Notice it is death that reigned....even over those who had not sinned like Adam.

Romans 5:12-14KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

And why did death reign...even those who had not sinned like Adam? Because the ground was cursed, and man would return unto the ground.

Gen. 3:17-19KJV And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Here's the first death.

Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

Here is why death reigned because of Adam's sin...they had no access to the tree of life.

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

These posts are too long. I'll have to address the rest of it on another post.

 

[Lon]

"One woman believed..." The rest of them don't even think a fertilized egg is a human being. You're going off on tangents with all this speculation concerning why people have abortions. It's selfishness, plain and simple.

Two were in mental institutions 'because' they believed they were saving their children 'because' they believed the children couldn't have sinned. I was told there were more, but I did not meet them. The other, ttruscott gave from the news. Another, was a woman that drowned each of her kids and they all held this in common. Does it lead to that? Yeah, it does, but thankfully sinless birth isn't a largely known among most. One of the women in the institution, was told that by her pastor, however. We do need to be careful of our doctrines, but I couldn't 'logically' argue against a women who was adamant that all her children would be saved 'despite herself.' What would I say?

Then I suggest you read more than that one verse in isolation.

Notice it is death that reigned....even over those who had not sinned like Adam.

Romans 5:12-14KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

And why did death reign...even those who had not sinned like Adam? Because the ground was cursed, and man would return unto the ground.

Gen. 3:17-19KJV And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Here's the first death.

Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

Here is why death reigned because of Adam's sin...they had no access to the tree of life.

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

These posts are too long. I'll have to address the rest of it on another post.

No problem on this last point. They do get long

I agree with what you have written, but it doesn't by that token erase being born in sin, under the curse. It has been awhile since I worked on this part of my theology. At the time, it was Psalm 51:5 that convinced me.

As far as I understand this Romans passage: 'sin' had no name, rather. It was the law that made Paul realize he was dead. Before? He was still 'breaking' those laws. I once trespassed without knowing it, got caught. Other times? Realized when I was young, I was trespassing, just didn't know it was against the law, still a trespasser, just didn't know. Paul even says that gentiles without 'the Law' still know they don't measure up because they have a law unto themselves. We have atheists all over TOL who suggest they aren't sinners, just 'human, naturally.'

 

[Tambora]

How much longer are you going to ignore what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12?

You want to talk about anything and everything but what Paul wrote there.

If you don't have an answer just say so but please quit ignoring it.



Where is your evidence that people are not born spiritually alive? The reason why a person must be born again is because he dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Paul was alive spiritually before he broke the law and then he died spiritually. That means that he did not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

That's a good point.
It was not until Paul knew what sin was that sin slew him spiritually.

This could possibly tie into the story of the prodical son. He was alive physically the whole time, but the story says he was alive, then dead, then alive again.

 

[Lon]

How much longer are you going to ignore what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12?

You want to talk about anything and everything but what Paul wrote there.

If you don't have an answer just say so but please quit ignoring it.

I already did, twice now. Romans 5:10 "while enemies" Romans 5:14 sinning, not like Adam, but yet 'sinning' no exceptions (Psalm 51:5 from birth). In a nutshell, a sinless birth says a child cannot actively sin, but it completely ignores what a person's condition is without God and without Christ, even if sinless birth were able to convince someone a child didn't sin by commission.

Where is your evidence that people are not born spiritually alive? The reason why a person must be born again is because he dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died"

It reduces sin to 'just' commission and this is inaccurate as well as missing part and parcel to the new birth. All new creations know that to know the good I ought to do, and not do it, is also sin. All know that not fulfilling our created purpose of relationship with God, is also separation from God.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Paul was alive spiritually before he broke the law and then he died spiritually. That means that he did not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

No, rather he was 'ignorantly' alive, is his argument. "How can they believe without a message?" Romans 10:14-21 People don't know they need the Lord Jesus Christ until they know Who He is and what He did.

 

[way 2 go]

Two were in mental institutions 'because' they believed they were saving their children 'because' they believed the children couldn't have sinned. I was told there were more, but I did not meet them. The other, ttruscott gave from the news. Another, was a woman that drowned each of her kids and they all held this in common. Does it lead to that? Yeah, it does, but thankfully sinless birth isn't a largely known among most. One of the women in the institution, was told that by her pastor, however. We do need to be careful of our doctrines, but I couldn't 'logically' argue against a women who was adamant that all her children would be saved 'despite herself.' What would I say?

what sins do infants commit ?

I agree with what you have written, but it doesn't by that token erase being born in sin, under the curse. It has been awhile since I worked on this part of my theology. At the time, it was Psalm 51:5 that convinced me.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

who sinned ?

As far as I understand this Romans passage: 'sin' had no name, rather. It was the law that made Paul realize he was dead.

Paul claims to have been alive you claim he was lying and already dead

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

 

[Lon]

what sins do infants commit ?

Or 'omit.'

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

who sinned ?

His: Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Paul claims to have been alive you claim he was lying and already dead

No, and yes. No not lying, yes dead. He said the LAW killed him, not sin. He knew because of the Law, he was already dead/had died.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Romans 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[glorydaz]

Psalm 51:5, what does it say? :think: "If" my theology calls David a liar, what good is my theology? My education? Any of it?

That doesn't say he was sinful when he was born. It says "in sin my mother conceived me". Diagram that sentence. Mother conceived me in sin. Who was in sin? If what you say is true, then Jesus would have been born in sin, too, right?

 

[Nang]

That doesn't say he was sinful when he was born. It says "in sin my mother conceived me". Diagram that sentence. Mother conceived me in sin. Who was in sin? If what you say is true, then Jesus would have been born in sin, too, right?

Check out the doctrine of "traducianism."

 

[Nang]

If what you say is true, then Jesus would have been born in sin, too, right?

No, because Jesus did not have a human father.

The substance of Mary provided His body, but He of His own power, assumed flesh, being conceived by His Holy Spirit, alone.

 

[way 2 go]

Or 'omit.'

infants can't omit in regards to sin,
so none

His: Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

no proof David sinned as an infant from that verse , parents sinned ,sure

No, and yes. No not lying, yes dead. He said the LAW killed him, not sin. He knew because of the Law, he was already dead/had died.

sorry you are saying Paul is lying and he said "sin came alive and I died"

also you acknowledge that he was killed so that means he had to be alive before that right.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

you just said "the LAW killed him"
now you say sin

 

[Lon]

That doesn't say he was sinful when he was born. It says "in sin my mother conceived me". Diagram that sentence. Mother conceived me in sin. Who was in sin? If what you say is true, then Jesus would have been born in sin, too, right?

He was born of the Father, fully God/fully man. It is a good question. He was tempted in every way we were, yet did not sin, yet our sins were upon Him. It would be hard to draw 'similarity' conclusions based on that, but worthy of a thread (probably more than this one).

Psalm 51:1-5 in context is definitely about David's sins, not his mother's.