ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Nang]

Excellent! They believe in 'no' original sin, but are Pelagian.


Actually, I wish the RC would BECOME Augustinian, but both he and this is another subject. I can drop Augustine like an easy habit for discussion. I like him, but I'm not wanting to buy all his autographed books or anything.

Right. Discussing the heretical views of Pelagius does not require any particular cheer-leading for Augustine, other than Augustine was a faithful believer in Jesus Christ. A real Christian, was he, and he opposed Pelagius with all his might.

All of this boils down to advocacy of the sovereignty of man versus human dependence upon the sovereignty of God in all things.

Pelagianism advocates the free will, and virtues of mankind, which hypothetically means some men should be capable of achieving righteousness, apart from the grace of God.

Thus it is anti-Christ.

And MADists apparently embrace it fully. :jawdrop:

:nono:

Not good.

 

[Lon]

Lon... you messaged me through rep and said this.

It is heresy doctrine. All believe in original sin but a few Protestants, mostly Arians as well as the Mormons. It will be a HARD sell to the whole church at large. -Lon

You acknowledge that some Arians and Mormans embrace it in your sentence structure.

Yes "but a few Protestants, Arians, and the Mormons."

Lon... we are not discussing Pelagianism! We are discounting the accuracy of Agustine!

FD, JS and I believe in a different original sin than Augustine!

Is. 14:14 says it all and binds to all scripture. You are Obfuscating the matter!

No, rather Augustine was the 'date' before the Reformation so I was objecting to this being Reformed or Calvinist teaching. It carries through the whole church, against the doctrine.

Pelagianism is your easy out! It's a false counter argument as we are not Pelagianism!

Okay, drop the 'Pelagian" from your repertoire, it still means 'born-sinless' and is heresy against scriptures. I can't change that. I have no power to change that. It is called 'Pelagianism' after the first guy that argued for sinless birth, the same discussion (Pelagian) we are having here.

My use of the term is simply to show this discussion took place centuries ago and the church found the idea of being born sinless as heresy against the need of a Savior and against what the scriptures say.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Right. Discussing the heretical views of Pelagius does not require any particular cheer-leading for Augustine, other than Augustine was a faithful believer in Jesus Christ. A real Christian, was he, and he opposed Pelagius with all his might.

All of this boils down to advocacy of the sovereignty of man versus the sovereignty of God in all things.

Pelagianism advocates the free will, and virtues of mankind, which hypothetically means some men should be capable of achieving righteousness, apart from the grace of God.

Thus it is anti-Christ.

And MADists apparently embrace it fully. :jawdrop:

:nono:

Not good.

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... this is a very damning post. It is a twisting of what Jerry, GD and myself are saying!

Spiritual blindness is not death. The Devil causes death (Heb. 2:14) ... not destruction of the soul! That is Spiritual Death.

Spiritual Blindness caused by unbelief is the very matter that the doctrine of Origonal Sin sweeps under the rug! Jesus opens our eyes! We choose to go to Him or not! This is literally what is being disputed by you and [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION].

 

[Nang]

"Why they sin" --> Sin-nature. Let's both keep reading.​

In case you forgot we were discussing how spiritual death comes to man. This verse says that it came to them because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

This is not saying "why they sin," as you imagine, but instead the result of their sins.

Why did you not address this fact?

The first cause of why all persons sin, is because Adam corrupted the human nature, and all persons inherit that corrupted human nature.

There is no virtue in any man. No freedom of will to choose rightly.

All mankind has fallen short of the glory of God. All souls stand guilty before God. God has cursed all mankind with death. It is their curse because God imputed the sins of their federal head, Adam, to their account.

That is why God the Son assumed like flesh and nature as His brethren (although without sin) as a Man, to die under that curse, to remove that curse. Galatians 3:13

Through His federal headship, many souls are reconciled to God and saved by His grace alone.

To deny the federal headship and imputation of sin/sentence of death that came from Adam, is to deny the federal headship of the Lord from heaven, and everlasting life.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes "but a few Protestants, Arians, and the Mormons."


No, rather Augustine was the 'date' before the Reformation so I was objecting to this being Reformed or Calvinist teaching. It carries through the whole church, against the doctrine.


Okay, drop the 'Pelagian" from your repertoire, it still means 'born-sinless' and is heresy against scriptures. I can't change that. I have no power to change that. It is called 'Pelagianism' after the first guy that argued for sinless birth, the same discussion (Pelagian) we are having here.

My use of the term is simply to show this discussion took place centuries ago and the church found the idea of being born sinless as heresy against the need of a Savior and against what the scriptures say.

Lon... Sin that we are "born into" is "unbelief". Yet... is a baby ashamed of being naked? Who teaches SHAME? Obviously cloths are good now... but you are associating you accuracy on majority and extrabiblical interpretations. Augustine is not the Bible and he is total crap in my eyes! He is the cause of much violence and Heresy!

He undid what Jesus did by making the flesh matter again... (John 6:66) ... there... I laid those cards in the table! The deep evil of Augustine is that his writings were so soon after Jesus that people assume he "got it right".

This is a grave error.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The first cause of why all persons sin, is because Adam corrupted the human nature, and all persons inherit that corrupted human nature.

There is no virtue in any man. No freedom of will to choose rightly.

All mankind has fallen short of the glory of God. All souls stand guilty before God. God has cursed all mankind with death. It is their curse because God imputed the sins of their federal head, Adam, to their account.

That is why God the Son assumed like flesh and nature as His brethren (although without sin) as a Man, to die under that curse, to remove that curse. Galatians 3:13

Through His federal headship, many souls are reconciled to God and saved by His grace alone.

To deny the federal headship and imputation of sin/sentence of death that came from Adam, is to deny the federal headship of the Lord from heaven, and everlasting life.

Rubbish doctrines of men!

1 Tim. 2:11f, 13f, 15 ... decimates your unbiblical diatribe!

The burden is in unbelief... through deception. Adam is not the guilty one and Eve is counted gullible! It is the serpent who is the focus, not Adam!

You are liberating Satan and teaching Bondage as good!

 

[Nang]

Lon... Sin that we are "born into" is "unbelief". Yet... is a baby ashamed of being naked? Who teaches SHAME? Obviously cloths are good now... but you are associating you accuracy on majority and extrabiblical interpretations. Augustine is not the Bible and he is total crap in my eyes! He is the cause of much violence and Heresy!

He undid what Jesus did by making the flesh matter again... (John 6:66) ... there... I laid those cards in the table! The deep evil of Augustine is that his writings were so soon after Jesus that people assume he "got it right".

This is a grave error.

You go over a line, here, EE. I have reported you for calling a believer in Jesus Christ, "total crap."

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You go over a line, here, EE. I have reported you for calling a believer in Jesus Christ, "total crap."

I do not worship AUGUSTINE!!! I worship JESUS!!! If I am punished for saying that Augustine is not the Bible and that I Glory only Jesus... I'll take whatever comes with thanks!

 

[Lon]

In case you forgot we were discussing how spiritual death comes to man. This verse says that it came to them because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

This is not saying "why they sin," as you imagine, but instead the result of their sins.

Why did you not address this fact?

I did. One of us thinks we are sinners because we sin, the other of us thinks we sin (act according to our nature) because we are sinners, therefore we read the verse as we see it. It should become obvious that I read this verse understanding we are born with the condition. Psalm 51:5; 58:3 Genesis 8:21 Job 14:4;15:14-16 John 3:6 Ephesians 2:3

 

[Nang]

Rubbish doctrines of men!

1 Tim. 2:11f, 13f, 15 ... decimates your unbiblical diatribe!

The burden is in unbelief... through deception. Adam is not the guilty one and Eve is counted gullible! It is the serpent who is the focus, not Adam!

You are liberating Satan and teaching Bondage as good!

You teach a dumb philosophy:

"The devil made me do it!"

Nothing Christian about your beliefs . . .

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I did. One of us thinks we are sinners because we sin, the other of us thinks we sin (act according to our nature) because we are sinners, therefore we read the verse as we see it. It should become obvious that I read this verse understanding we are born with the condition. Psalm 51:5; 58:3 Genesis 8:21 Job 14:4;15:14-16 John 3:6 Ephesians 2:3

Lon... you are outside of honesty... the Sin of the world... is Unbelief... you are drawing attention to the flesh with your words and denying what is being said... I'm logging off for now, but this is disturbing!

You are placing yourself in league with Namg who distorts the gospel!

I've been neg reposed twice for taking the focus off of Self and putting it on Jesus by this snake.

Seriously! The only time I ever neg repped Nang was for defending Daqq who mocked the virgin birth. I'm disgusted right now!!!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You teach a dumb philosophy:

"The devil made me do it!"

Nothing Christian about your beliefs . . .

No Nang... I am accountable for my freewill. I also place my freewill in Jesus. You are sincerely confused. I'm mad at you, but I won't vent or whine to anyone.

I place everything I have in Jesus and if that is vain philosophy ... then something is wrong with your heart! I call Jesus my liberation and Hope... if this is vain philosophy... then again... IDK.

He knows me like no other and loves me for who I am... I'm sincerely perplexed by your stances!

 

[Nang]

No Nang... I am accountable for my freewill. I also place my freewill in Jesus. You are sincerely confused. I'm mad at you, but I won't vent or whine to anyone.

I place everything I have in Jesus and if that is vain philosophy ... then something is wrong with your heart! I call Jesus my liberation and Hope... if this is vain philosophy... then again... IDK.

He knows me like no other and loves me for who I am... I'm sincerely perplexed by your stances!

My stance is one I take with anyone who advocates heresy, or who calls great Christians, "total crap" . . .

 

[Lon]

Solomon was David's son and he spoke exactly as I'm speaking in Ecclesiastes. Who was more suited to define David... Augustine or Solomon? @Lon ... edited in.

Helps. The thread is certainly moving along. Thank you.

Lon... you are totally dodging what I stated. I said that we are born to die because of Carnal death. You are associating Spiritual Death with Carnal death. Lon... We are born to die! We cannot change this. This refers to the wages of unbelief and the Carnal side of the matter. (Heb. 2:14)

I didn't dodge, I agree. Rather, is this because of sin? I believe so. Or 'naturally' made this way? I don't believe so. It was because man was sinful that God limited his days that he would not contend with him.

Blindness is not death!

John 3:3 It is more than a blindness. Psalm 51:5 is more than a blindness.

Now... Lon... Can Satan kill our Soul, or just our DUST?

Who was Jesus referring to that can kill the Body and Soul in Sheol? :nono:

Who are you empowering?

:idunno: What is your connection? Not seeing it. Of course God can destroy the Body and Soul. Are you arguing for annihilation? Do you understand that as somehow a part of this discussion?

Twist my scripture quotes in your response again... and I will make this a hill to die on. Please stop deceiving people in your responses that are void of understanding to what @Jerry Shugart, @glorydaz and myself are saying!

It is not ok

:idunno: I haven't twisted one scripture.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

My stance is one I take with anyone who advocates heresy, or who calls great Christians, "total crap" . . .

Agustine was a forgiven sinner. His writings are not cannon and 80% of them are Heresy and the foundation of Heresy that plagues the church to this very day! You are a self contradiction and you place too much in the basket of extra biblical authors.

You also misrepresent people on a regular basis.

I'm sincerely disgusted by your dishonesty and extra biblical swagger.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Helps. The thread is certainly moving along. Thank you.

I didn't dodge, I agree. Rather, is this because of sin? I believe so. Or 'naturally' made this way? I don't believe so. It was because man was sinful that God limited his days that he would not contend with him.


John 3:3 It is more than a blindness. Psalm 51:5 is more than a blindness.

:idunno: What is your connection? Not seeing it. Of course God can destroy the Body and Soul. Are you arguing for annihilation? Do you understand that as somehow a part of this discussion?

:idunno: I haven't twisted one scripture.

Seriously? You can't see it? Lon... it's right there!?! I have to chill for a bit. If I unload on Nang, it would be counter productive.

Your a good dude and my brother in Him...

I'll wait until I can communicate with a little less thunder.

All Respect, Love and willingness to be wounded and wound for the sake of Him,

EE

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I did.

No you didn't. You ignored it. You said nothing of the fact that Romans 5:12 says that all men die because all have sinned. This verse is not speaking of a physical death but instead a spiritual death.

According to the Calvinists men die spiritually because Adam's death has been imputed to them. But since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin that means that person must be alive spiritually when he first sins.

This fact alone destroys the teaching of the Calvinists about people being born spiritually dead.

 

[Lon]

In case you forgot we were discussing how spiritual death comes to man. This verse says that it came to them because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

This is not saying "why they sin," as you imagine, but instead the result of their sins.

Why did you not address this fact?

I did. The 'fact' doesn't say we are born sinless. Men's days were numbered 'before' any of them sinned (verb) because sin (noun) entered the race. You were born with a knowledge of good AND evil as well as born without .being spiritually alive else you'd not need to be 'born-again' called 'born of spirit.'

 

[Lon]

No you didn't. You ignored it. You said nothing of the fact that Romans 5:12 says that all men die because all have sinned. This verse is not speaking of a physical death but instead a spiritual death.

According to the Calvinists men die spiritually because Adam's death has been imputed to them. But since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin that means that person must be alive spiritually when he first sins.

This fact alone destroys the teaching of the Calvinists about people being born spiritually dead.

:nono: You are mislabeling "Original sin" doctrine with "Total Depravity." Different topics. The former is the whole church. After that, your 'doctrine' is derivative (means not implicit, but deduced from 'your' understanding of the text). -Lon

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I did. The 'fact' doesn't say we are born sinless. Men's days were numbered 'before' any of them sinned (verb) because sin (noun) entered the race. You were born with a knowledge of good AND evil as well as born without .being spiritually alive else you'd not need to be 'born-again' called 'born of spirit.'

Okay... Lon... to keep this simple and as usual... I logged back on... but darn it I really didn't want to. Do aborted babies and 4 year olds that die go to hell? Think about it. GD had a point you glossed over from Galatians.

Also... 2 Co. 3:15 has a duel theological reference that one of the two references compliment what Jerry is pointing out.