ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Jerry Shugart]

Although Jesus spoke of this event as if it had already been accomplished the time of fulfillment had not yet come.

According to your idea it was already accomplished but it really had not yet been accomplished!

BRILLIANT!

Why would the Lord say this if it wasn't already accomplished?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

Please notice that He didn't say "will be passed from death to life." Instead, He said that they have been passed from death to life.

Before He atoned for our sins and rose from the dead Jesus could promise anyone a place in His Kingdom to come. The down payment aspect did not come until later.

As an illustration, let us look at Jesus when He went to the temple during the Feast of Tabernacles.

37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” (John 7:37)

If the scriptures went no farther Jerry would be claiming that because Jesus was speaking in the present tense He was offering the promise to them then and there. However, the scripture adds a certain detail:

39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39).

Very clearly those who believed in Jesus had not yet received the Spirit because Jesus was not yet raised from the dead. Now since it is through the Spirit that we are born again it is also clear that no one was born again before the resurrection.

Let us look at this translation:

"Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink." He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water." Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified" (Jn.7:37-39; CLV).​

This passage is speaking about what will flow out of a believer, living water. And this verse speaks about what happened after the Cross when holy spirit was given:

"And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim" (Acts 2:4; CLV).​

It was the word of God which flowed out of those who believed and that is why His word is described as "living water." And what Peter says here refers to the prophecy of which the Lord Jesus made reference:

"But this is that which has been declared through the prophet Joel: And it shall be in the last days,' (God is saying) 'I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (Acts 2:16-17; CLV).​

There is nothing in any of these verses which indicates that no one was made alive by the spirit when they believed. As the Lord Jesus said, those who believe are passed from death to life. Not "will" be passed from death to life.

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said to a woman here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your ridiculous ideas the woman was saved and had her sins forgiven but despite this she remained dead spiritually in her sins!

 

[Shasta]

[Jerry Shugart;4995274]According to your idea it was already accomplished but it really had not yet been accomplished!

BRILLIANT!

Why would the Lord say this if it wasn't already accomplished?:

​

You did not keep in mind that eternal life has to do with (1) what we enter into in the next life and (2) the down payment we have of the life to come, something which Paul called the "earnest OF the inheritance" which is the Holy Spirit. A person can possess the title deed to Eternal Life and not yet have received the down payment. As you have admitted, that part (the Spirit) would only come later.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live"

(Jn.5:24-25).

This scripture clearly links Eternal Life to the Last Day (1) when the dead will "hear the voice of the Son of God and live." A person can possess this life in the present.

Please notice that He didn't say "will be passed from death to life." Instead, He said that they have been passed from death to life.

A person who has this kind of Eternal Life is no longer part of the humanity that is relegated to destruction. However, the earnest of the inheritance was not yet given

Let us look at this translation:

"Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink." He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water." Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified" (Jn.7:37-39; CLV).​

This passage is speaking about what will flow out of a believer, living water. And this verse speaks about what happened after the Cross when holy spirit was given:

It was the word of God which flowed out of those who believed and that is why His word is described as "living water." And what Peter says here refers to the prophecy of which the Lord Jesus made reference:

"And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim" (Acts 2:4; CLV).​

​

So, according to you, "rivers of living waters" just refers to the "truth" that would flow out of believers. When the Jesus spoke to the woman at the well about "living water" was He just offering to her the prospect of teaching and preaching the word? Do you think she was thirsting for that. No what He was offering her was much deeper and pervasive than that. It was an entirely new way of life lived by the motive force of the Spirit. "Rivers of living waters" referred to the totality of the Spirit's activity in and through us which certainly would involves His revealing the word to us but much more. The abundant life Jesus lived in the Spirit as He continually heard and obeyed the Father's will is the present tense experience of what we will enjoy in the world to come.

Notice that Jesus said that the Spirit would relate to them in a way that they had never experienced. Rather than being "with" (or proximal to)them (whatever that meant) He would be "within" them, obviously in a closer more personal way. This contradicts one of your primary theses which is that all righteous men are born of the Holy Spirit and are full of spiritual life. If this were true then we would expect no less of the disciples. They were righteous men (except for Judas) but, in fact, the disciples were not born of the Spirit and would not be until Jesus breathed upon them after the resurrection (John 20:22). Until that time the Spirit would be with them in the same way as He had been with people throughout history. But why did Jesus not give them the Spirit then? The restoration of the Holy Spirit to the human spirit was clearly a direct result OF the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing in any of these verses which indicates that no one was made alive by the spirit when they believed. As the Lord Jesus said, those who believe are passed from death to life. Not "will" be passed from death to life.

I noticed you completely ignored my remarks about how we partake of eternal life through "eating His flesh" and "drinking His blood" despite the fact that I was attempting to answer a scripture you had repeatedly brought up to me. I said that, although Jesus was speaking of eternal life as an immediate offer, it is plain He was referring to something that would only take place after His crucifixion when His body would be broken and His blood shed. The "feeding" of His life to us could take place spiritually ONLY through the agency of the Holy Spirit when He had access to our inner "holy of holies."

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said to a woman here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your ridiculous ideas the woman was saved and had her sins forgiven but despite this she remained dead spiritually in her sins!

[/QUOTE]

I never said people were not forgiven when Jesus forgave them. Jesus Himself said He had the "authority on earth to forgive sins" However, apparently, this authority was based upon the work He would accomplish later on the cross and through the resurrection.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins
(1 Corinthians 15:17).

This is another instance of Christ treating as present reality something He would accomplish later. As to this woman's spiritual change. Without any enmity between her and God she could then walk WITH God's Spirit in peace in the same manner as God had walked with various individuals throughout history. The Spirit would not be in union IN her until after the resurrection. People who walk with God are not in the same category as those who actively oppose Him. At the same time, neither are they the same as NT believers who are themselves living "temples of the Holy Spirit."

John the Baptist who had the Holy Spirit since before he was born was called "the greatest of men born of women (i.e., among those who had only natural birth) yet even the least in the Kingdom of God was greater than he because they would be born of the Spirit.​

 

[Shasta]

[Jerry Shugart;4995274]According to your idea it was already accomplished but it really had not yet been accomplished!

BRILLIANT!

Why would the Lord say this if it wasn't already accomplished?:

​

You did not keep in mind that eternal life has to do with (1) what we enter into in the next life and (2) the down payment we have of the life to come, something which Paul called the "earnest OF the inheritance" which is the Holy Spirit. A person can possess the title deed to Eternal Life and not yet have received the down payment. As you have admitted, that part (the Spirit) would only come later.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" [/I](Jn.5:24-25).

This scripture clearly links Eternal Life to the Last Day (1) when the dead will "hear the voice of the Son of God and live." A person can possess this life in the present.

Please notice that He didn't say "will be passed from death to life." Instead, He said that they have been passed from death to life.

A person who has this kind of Eternal Life is no longer part of the number relegated to destruction. However, the earnest of the inheritance was not yet given

 

[Shasta]

Let us look at this translation:

"Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink." He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water." Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified" (Jn.7:37-39; CLV).​

This passage is speaking about what will flow out of a believer, living water. And this verse speaks about what happened after the Cross when holy spirit was given:

It was the word of God which flowed out of those who believed and that is why His word is described as "living water." And what Peter says here refers to the prophecy of which the Lord Jesus made reference:

"And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim" (Acts 2:4; CLV).​

​

So, according to you, "rivers of living waters" just refers to the "truth" that would flow out of believers. When the Jesus spoke to the woman at the well about "living water" was He just offering to her the prospect of teaching and preaching the word? Do you think she was thirsting for THAT? No, what He was offering her was much deeper and pervasive. It was an entirely new way of life lived by the motive force of the Spirit. "Rivers of living waters" referred to the totality of the Spirit's activity in and through us which certainly would involves His revealing the word to us but also much more. The "abundant life" Jesus promised is the kind of life He lived in the Spirit as He continually heard and obeyed the Father's will. That was the present tense aspect of the kind of life we will enjoy in the world to come.

Notice that Jesus said the Spirit would relate to them in a way that they had never experienced. Rather than being "with" (or proximal to)them (whatever that meant) He would be "within" them. Obviously this entailed something much closer and more personal than had existed before. This contradicts one of your primary theses which is that all righteous men are born of the Holy Spirit and are full of spiritual life.

If this were true then we would expect no less of the disciples. After all, they were righteous men (except for Judas) but the disciples were not born of the Spirit and would not be until Jesus breathed upon them after the resurrection (John 20:22). Until that time, the Spirit would abide with them in the same way as He had been with people throughout history. But why did Jesus not just give them the Spirit right then? The restoration of the Holy Spirit to the human spirit was clearly a direct result OF the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing in any of these verses which indicates that no one was made alive by the spirit when they believed. As the Lord Jesus said, those who believe are passed from death to life. Not "will" be passed from death to life.

I noticed you completely ignored my remarks about how we partake of eternal life through "eating His flesh" and "drinking His blood" despite the fact that I was attempting to answer a scripture you had repeatedly brought up to me. I said that, although Jesus was speaking of eternal life as an immediate offer, it is plain He was referring to something that would only take place after His crucifixion when His body would be broken and His blood shed. The "feeding" of His life to us could take place spiritually ONLY through the agency of the Holy Spirit when He had access to our inner "holy of holies."​

 

[Shasta]

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said to a woman here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your ridiculous ideas the woman was saved and had her sins forgiven but despite this she remained dead spiritually in her sins!

I never said people were not forgiven when Jesus forgave them. Jesus said He had the "authority on earth to forgive sins" However, apparently, His authority to do so was based upon the work that He would accomplish later on the cross and through the resurrection.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins
(1 Corinthians 15:17).

This is another instance of Christ treating as present reality something He would accomplish later. As to this woman's spiritual change. Without any enmity between her and God she could walk WITH the Spirit at peace with God in the same manner as individuals had walked with God throughout history. The Spirit would not be in union IN her, however, until after the resurrection. Of course people who walk with God are not in the same category at all as those who actively oppose Him. At the same time, neither are they in the same category as post resurrection believers who are living "temples of the Holy Spirit."

John the Baptist who had the Holy Spirit since before he was born was called "the greatest of men born of women (i.e., among those who had only natural birth) yet even the least in the Kingdom of God was greater than he because they would be born of the Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Shasta, earlier I said:

Why would the Lord say this if it wasn't already accomplished?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

Please notice that He didn't say "will be passed from death to life." Instead, He said that they have been passed from death to life.​

Instead of dealing with the words of the Lord Jesus that those who believed are passed from death to life you change the subject:

You did not keep in mind that eternal life has to do with (1) what we enter into in the next life and (2) the down payment we have of the life to come, something which Paul called the "earnest OF the inheritance" which is the Holy Spirit. A person can possess the title deed to Eternal Life and not yet have received the down payment.

Here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom he gave eternal life:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out....And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:37,39).​

The Lord Jesus' words that he will resurrect those to whom He gave eternal life serves as a title deed to eternal life because what He promises He will fulfill. Now back to the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

First of all, the verbs in this verse are in the "present" tense, meaning that when anyone who believed his words were made alive spiritually. And in the following verse the Lord Jesus is speaking about the fact that those who believed are passed from death unto life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24-25).​

If the Lord is not speaking of being passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life then of what kind of death and life is he speaking?

Again, the Lord is not speaking about something which will happen in the future but instead something that happened was happening right then and there the moment anyone believed. And since that proves you wrong you must somehow get rid of the plain words of the Lord Jesus in both of those verses. So you say:

Although Jesus spoke of this event as if it had already been accomplished the time of fulfillment had not yet come.

If its fulfillment remained in the future then the Lord Jesus would not have used the present tense. According to you the words of the Lord in the following verse when He speaks of eating His flesh are in regard to the finished work of the Cross:

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:53).​

If that was true then it is obvious that later in the same discourse the Lord would not have said this:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Now let us look at this passage again:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

The Lord Jesus said that at the time when men would believe, and that time "has now come," those believers will live, or pass from death to life. But since you know that sinks your ship you must change the plain meaning of His words as to when it would happen into the future:

This scripture clearly links Eternal Life to the Last Day (1) when the dead will "hear the voice of the Son of God and live.

Not the last day when the dead will hear but instead at the time when they believed.

It is an easy thing to make the Scriptures line up with a person's ideas by changing the plain meaning of what is said. However, having a knowledge of the truth only comes as a result of understanding the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN.

 

[Shasta]

Let us look at John chapter 6 to see what Jesus said.

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh (John 6:48-49).”

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood ABIDES IN me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live by the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me (John 6:53-57)

When Jesus said He lived BY the Father what did He mean? He meant that He was living by a moment-by-moment connection to and dependence upon the Father THROUGH the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. It was only by this means that Jesus was able to always "do what He saw the Father doing" "say what the Father was saying" and express His image perfectly. Jesus did not come to earth to be God but to be a human being. Therefore He had to walk dependently on the Father through the Spirit in a relationship of faith, love and obedience. Once the Spirit was given to the disciples they would be able to abide in Jesus the same way...but the Spirit was not yet given and would not be until AFTER the resurrection. Until then, believers would only "walk with God" in the same manner as followers of God had throughout history.

Jesus' flesh and blood was His life released to us through the work of the Cross. His "flesh and blood" could not feed us until His body was broken and His blood was poured out. This is the clear significance of the Last Supper.

Until Jesus had given Himself in this way His kind of life could not be replicated in us. He would, instead, be an example to be emulated like all the other heros of the faith. But we do not live BY any of them. Jesus was speaking of how He was going to deliver the present tense experience of "eternal life" to our human spirit through the Person of the Holy Spirit who would be "the earnest of our inheritance."

While Jesus often promised the other kind of eternal life (in the world to come), the immediate experience of the life of God was not available until the Spirit came. The Spirit is the one who dispenses life to the human Spirit and He could not accomplish this until atonement had been made and He was re-united to the human spirit.

 

[Shasta]

[Jerry Shugart;4997690]:

You have insisted that children from conception are full of spiritual life and that all righteous people throughout history have been born of the Spirit. Is this what Jesus said?

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be in you (John 14:15-16)

The disciples were righteous men which meant, according to your theory, that they already had the Holy Spirit living in them. Therefore, why was there a need to send the Holy Spirit to them? Jesus' remarks are inconsistent with a primary tenet of your view. Next, notice the more intimate relationship He would have. He would go from merely being WITH them to being IN them.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you (John 14:20).

This experience of being inhabited by the Spirit and being "co-conscious" with Him would become a part of their walk with God in that day.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him
(John 14:23).

Becoming temples of the Holy Spirit would take place "in the day" Jesus rose from the dead. Again, none of this comports with your idea that the disciples already had God's spirit abiding within them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The disciples were righteous men which meant, according to your theory, that they already had the Holy Spirit living in them.

Please cease from misrepresenting what I said. I have told you more that once that there is a difference between the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person and the power of the Holy Spirit to bring spiritual life to a person.

For some reason you cannot even understand that simple thing. Let us look again at what the Lord Jesus said about how people who were dead spiritually received spiritual life at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

First of all, the verbs in this verse are in the "present" tense, meaning that when anyone who believed his words were made alive spiritually. And in the following verse the Lord Jesus is speaking about the fact that those who believed are passed from death unto life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24-25).​

This is speaking about something which was happening right then and there and not something which will happen until after the Cross. But since that does not match your man-made ideas you attempt to use smoke and mirrors to try to convince others that the lord Jesus didn't really mean what He said.

The Spirit is the one who dispenses life to the human Spirit and He could not accomplish this until atonement had been made and He was re-united to the human spirit.

Again, when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who believed His words were being made alive spiritually:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

The Lord Jesus said that at the time when men would believe, and that time "has now come," those believers will live, or pass from spiritual death to spiritual life. and the Jews who believed the words of the Lord Jesus while He walked the earth were "born of God":

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:10-13).​

According to your ideas the Jews who believed the Lord Jesus when He walked the earth were born of God but yet they remained spiritually dead. In your mind these believers were born of God and became the children of God but His children were spiritually dead!

Do you not know how ridiculous your argument is?

The Lord also said this to a woman before the Cross:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your ideas this lady had her sins forgiven and was saved but yet she remained dead spiritually in her sins.

 

[Iconoclast85]

Hello Iconoclast85,

Shall we post that in context?

Psalm 51

A Prayer of Repentance

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

51 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,[a]
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.​

This seems to be a Psalm of "Repentance that uses verbiage of humility and speech that is expressing David's "Humility". This seems to support the "Pride is the original sin theory".

But... It doesn't seem to be about actual birth of "Spiritual Death". It seems that ... as [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] has already pointed out... David's "Spirit" is broken before "God".

Did God actually "Break" David's bones to encourage his repentance in the tale of Bathsheba? I always thought that Nathan used the very words of God to do this?

Should we now take it out of ...................

"context"?​

It does not change the meaning at all.

 

[Iconoclast85]

"Inspired THEM to write". Haven't you noticed that the different authors have their own style of writing?

The bible teaches many things if a person would read it.....
20*Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21*For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

16*every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness,
17*that the man of God may be fitted -- for every good work having been completed.

 

[glorydaz]

The bible teaches many things if a person would read it.....
20*Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21*For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

16*every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness,
17*that the man of God may be fitted -- for every good work having been completed.

Nothing there that claims each author does not have his own particular style of writing.

 

[Lon]

Lon... I'm scripturally armed to destroy that premise [that we are born sinners] now. Either Adam was created sinnless and without a sin nature... and still botched it up... or God made the first of us with the "Bend" towards sin and punished us for His Will... in the same breath... you can call that Apple hole Tersness... but you can't call it obfuscation.

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty...."

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty...."

New approach... are you okay on microscoping verses back and forth and expressing what they mean to one another and how scripture backs it up... while purposefully staying on a specific verse until we're both ready to move on and both see each other's perspective?

Starting with this one?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Please cease from misrepresenting what I said. I have told you more that once that there is a difference between the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person and the power of the Holy Spirit to bring spiritual life to a person.

For some reason you cannot even understand that simple thing. Let us look again at what the Lord Jesus said about how people who were dead spiritually received spiritual life at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

First of all, the verbs in this verse are in the "present" tense, meaning that when anyone who believed his words were made alive spiritually. And in the following verse the Lord Jesus is speaking about the fact that those who believed are passed from death unto life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24-25).​

This is speaking about something which was happening right then and there and not something which will happen until after the Cross. But since that does not match your man-made ideas you attempt to use smoke and mirrors to try to convince others that the lord Jesus didn't really mean what He said.



Again, when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who believed His words were being made alive spiritually:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

The Lord Jesus said that at the time when men would believe, and that time "has now come," those believers will live, or pass from spiritual death to spiritual life. and the Jews who believed the words of the Lord Jesus while He walked the earth were "born of God":

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:10-13).​

According to your ideas the Jews who believed the Lord Jesus when He walked the earth were born of God but yet they remained spiritually dead. In your mind these believers were born of God and became the children of God but His children were spiritually dead!

Do you not know how ridiculous your argument is?

The Lord also said this to a woman before the Cross:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your ideas this lady had her sins forgiven and was saved but yet she remained dead spiritually in her sins.

What ever happened to Shasta? I miss their ability to stay the debate course.

 

[Lon]

New approach... are you okay on microscoping verses back and forth and expressing what they mean to one another and how scripture backs it up... while purposefully staying on a specific verse until we're both ready to move on and both see each other's perspective?

Starting with this one?

Of course. Have at it.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Of course. Have at it.

We are both postured and the very title of this thread is loaded.

Hence forth... I have answered here... and realized that this is a "dead end" back and forth...

All blessings, in Him,

EE

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...how-Augustine-Original-Sin-has-been-addressed

 

[Lon]

New approach... are you okay on microscoping verses back and forth and expressing what they mean to one another and how scripture backs it up... while purposefully staying on a specific verse until we're both ready to move on and both see each other's perspective?

Starting with [Genesis 3:1]?

We are both postured and the very title of this thread is loaded.

Hence forth... I have answered here... and realized that this is a "dead end" back and forth...

All blessings, in Him,

EE

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...how-Augustine-Original-Sin-has-been-addressed

For me, these scriptures already posted in this thread:

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET
Our goal: 2 Corinthians 10:5
Genesis 8:21 The intent of all men's hearts is evil, from his youth.
Ephesians 2:3b Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Luke 7:47 John 15:5 Ephesians 2:12 Romans 3:11;5:18
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Job 14:4;15:14-16
1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
Romans 3:10,11 - No one righteous. No exception
Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God
Psalm 51:1-5

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

For me, these scriptures already posted in this thread:

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET
Our goal: 2 Corinthians 10:5
Genesis 8:21 The intent of all men's hearts is evil, from his youth.
Ephesians 2:3b Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Luke 7:47 John 15:5 Ephesians 2:12 Romans 3:11;5:18
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Job 14:4;15:14-16
1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
Romans 3:10,11 - No one righteous. No exception
Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God
Psalm 51:1-5

I remain aggressive and blunt... and thus... I will be up front. I never liked the name of this thread... because it was a tactical response to [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] 's initial address of "classical Original Sin"... and connected the supposed heresy of your chosen post biblical subject... with Jerry's points.

We don't know much about ole Peligus apart from his critics attacks and misrepresentations. We do know that his teachings offered Grace apart from the institution of the "mother church"... or "brick and mortar" but that is all.

The rest of the little known information about him is unreliable... as he was labeled an enemy against Catholicism.

Henceforth... I reject the title of this thread as accurate to the heart of our discussion and offer my reply "linked here"

 

[Danoh]

For me, these scriptures already posted in this thread:

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET
Our goal: 2 Corinthians 10:5
Genesis 8:21 The intent of all men's hearts is evil, from his youth.
Ephesians 2:3b Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Luke 7:47 John 15:5 Ephesians 2:12 Romans 3:11;5:18
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Job 14:4;15:14-16
1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
Romans 3:10,11 - No one righteous. No exception
Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God
Psalm 51:1-5

Great post, Lon - exactly how one thing or another is studied out as to the things that differ in Scripture - not via asserting over and over what one or two passages supposedly say, but via comparison of a multiplicity of passages on the same subject and theme.

In short - "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." - Isaiah 8:20.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12