ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Lon]

Sin offering for a child presented to the temple Luke - Leviticus

Sin offering for a child presented to the temple Luke - Leviticus

I offer this, not as debating, but as trying to give further reading and providing resource material for those who are inclined and seeking information:
This isn't conclusive, but it struck me that perhaps the answer to this discussion might be found among the sin offerings of the O.T.
The Lord Jesus Christ had no need for this offering. It was also given for parents as well as part of Jewish ritual, so was still required at His birth, but not for Him according to Jewish commentary/understanding (some of the thinking follows).

Luke 2:22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
Luke 2:23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”)
Luke 2:24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”

It never-the-less was given for all other children, as a sin-offering for the father, mother, and child:

Leviticus 12:6-8 childbirth became a time of pain and struggle. Every time that a child is born today we are reminded that the knowledge of sin, brought pain and struggle into the process of childbirth. As a result, a sin offering is required after the birth of a child. This offering is not required because of a specific sin that the newborn, or the newborn's parents committed. This offering is required to remind us that sin exists in the world as a result of the fall of mankind. The sin offering for the birth of a child is the reaffirmation that HaShem is in the process of redeeming His people from the sinful nature of the world. Therefore, childbirth represents both sin and redemption. The pain of childbirth represents the sin of Adam. The sin offering of HaShem represents the restoration He offers to the world. Therefore, in the midst of the pain of childbirth, Yisrael is also reminded of the hope and the redemption HaShem is creating for our children and us....
Childbirth reminded Yisrael of the past transgressions of Adam. This occurred because the pain and struggle of childbirth are a result of the sin of Adam. The sin sacrifices offered after the birth of a child reminded the Children of Yisrael that HaShem is in the process of redeeming His people from the sin of Adam. -Rabbinical Torah teaching

Another Rabbi explained that a Christian must believe in Original Sin, or there is no need for the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah, making Christianity and Christ unnecessary.

Interestingly, though they all see the sacrifice as a sin offering for the child as well, Jews do not believe in original sin because they reject the need for the Lord Jesus Christ as Saving Messiah. The rather see the sin off ering as unnecessary but obligatory. They all concluded (from the ones I read) that the NT may embrace some Original sin doctrine, especially Paul, they say, but they believed the Lord Jesus Christ's words about children rather gave them the impression that He didn't believe in Original sin or Ancestral sin.

Further reading: Wiki Original Sin Wiki Concupiscence

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It never-the-less was given for all other children, as a sin-offering for the father, mother, and child:

Only for the mother (Lev.12:17-18).

We can see that children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).​

Are we suppposed to believe that an infant is dead spiritually but yet that infant is described as being the LORD's reward? Hardly! And of course if an infant is born spiritually dead then it is unimaginable that he would be described this way:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

 

[Shasta]

People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words received eternal life the moment when they believed and they were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were made alive by the Spirit. The promise was realized at the time when a person believed His words. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.

Eternal life is often used of entering into a state of everlasting life with the Lord in the afterlife. For instance, At the end of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats Jesus says:

46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:46)

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
(Daniel 12:2).

When Jesus told the thief on the cross Jesus "Today you will be with me in paradise." The man was not yet experiencing that life but he could rely on Jesus' promise that he would.

Are you so uninformed that you do not even realize that men are "born of God" when they believe?:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

And this gospel of life was preached when? It was AFTER Jesus had come and done the work of redemption

23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God (1 Peter 1:23).

What is this "word of God" Peter is talking about? Is it the word of the Tanach. Were the ancient Jews "born again" by meditating on that? In the Parable of the Sower was the seed that gave life the word of Moses? No, Jesus was not just putting a new spin on the principles of the Law. He brought forth in the parables mysteries that had never been revealed (Matthew 13:35)

When the Bible speaks of the Word of God that is preached it means the good news about Jesus and how we can be saved by putting our faith in Him.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.…(Romans 10:8)

Returning to Peter we find the following:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:3-4)

Peter, like Paul draws a direct connection between the death and resurrection of Jesus and our experience of being born again. Before He had accomplished the work no living person could be born of the Spirit.

it is those who believe God who are born again. And Paul makes it plain that Abraham believed God:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:3-50.​

According to your ideas even though Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness he remained dead spiritually. Instead of accepting this truth you say this about Abraham:

You have come up with something you believe is a law: "everyone who is righteous before God is born again. Then you apply this law: Abraham was righteous - therefore he was born again but this is circular reasoning because you have never produced any textual evidence to establish your premise in the first place.

No, that is not what the Scriptures are saying. Have you never read the following words of Paul in regard to Abraham's imputed righteousness?:

"And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Ro.4:22-25).​

It was pleasing to God that Abraham believed. Therefore, God considered it as a righteous thing. That is all "impute" means. It means to "count" or "consider" It does not indicate there was some kind of a wholesale life transfer of "righteous credits" to Abraham's "account" so that he did not need to obey God anymore. Abraham had to continue walking with God in faith and obedience for the rest of his life. In fact, even when God considered his faith "righteousness" God knew that Abraham would follow through with his position of faith. In fact, God gave Abraham the opportunity to prove his faith by his actions when He told him to sacrifice Isaac.

Does that not "sound" like modern "justification theology"? Of course it is!

But according to your ideas Abraham received the imputed righteousness which is of God but he remained spiritually dead!

 

[Shasta]

Yes he can, and I can point out when I see you making assumptions before you even understand what he's saying. For instance, he asked you if you knew the difference between being spiritually alive and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I thought that was the perfect opportunity for you to respond to what he was actually saying, but you appeared to ignore it.

There is a whole backlog of things he has never responded to me about. If you can help me better understand what he is saying, feel free.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Eternal life is often used of entering into a state of everlasting life with the Lord in the afterlife.

Why didn't you actually address what I said here?:

People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words received eternal life the moment when they believed and they were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were made alive by the Spirit. The promise was realized at the time when a person believed His words. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.​

This is the third time that these facts have been presented to you and i see absolutely no evidence that you actually believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63.

 

[glorydaz]

There is a whole backlog of things he has never responded to me about. If you can help me better understand what he is saying, feel free.

Maybe if you kept your posts a bit shorter it would help....there wouldn't be such a backlog.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a whole backlog of things he has never responded to me about.

Like what?

 

[TulipBee]

Short for isolate passages from their overall narrative, scope and context, and then proceed from there to read things into them.

 

[Shasta]

Maybe if you kept your posts a bit shorter it would help....there wouldn't be such a backlog.

You have a point but it goes well beyond that

 

[Shasta]

Like what?

I am sure we will get around to it again if the discussion continues long enough

 

[Shasta]

Why didn't you actually address what I said here?:

People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words received eternal life the moment when they believed and they were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were made alive by the Spirit. The promise was realized at the time when a person believed His words. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.​

This is the third time that these facts have been presented to you and i see absolutely no evidence that you actually believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63.

You completely ignored long post of mine so you could return to your script. The fact is that I have answered this question before, though I doubt if you read it.

Very well, let me say it again. Jesus had the authority to grant eternal life to whomever He willed but eternal life can mean more than one thing. Final entrance into eternal life takes place in the hereafter is called eternal life. Here are several examples (which I quoted before): (Matthew 25:46, Daniel 12:2). A second aspect to eternal life is personal and relational. It commences with our being born again and consists of knowing Him by inner experience (John 17:2-3) This could be promised and alluded to as a coming event but could not be realized after the resurrection of Jesus.

One of the benefits Jesus purchased was the right to a close personal relationship with God through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Peter directly linked the new birth to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (1 Peter 1:3-4). Before that the disciples had the same relationship to the Holy Spirit as other OT believers. Jesus spoke of the transition from the old way of being proximal to new life where the Holy Spirit is joined to the human spirit: John 14:16-18.

There is no textual evidence that believers before the cross experienced the new birth and the personal experience of knowing God ("eternal life") through the indwelling Spirit. Your only real argument is one of propriety. You think righteous people of former ages OUGHT to have been born again by the Spirit but you rely on what a few scriptures seem to say. However, the fuller counsel of scripture does not support your idea.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no textual evidence that believers before the cross experienced the new birth and the personal experience of knowing God ("eternal life") through the indwelling Spirit. Your only real argument is one of propriety. You think righteous people of former ages OUGHT to have been born again by the Spirit but you rely on what a few scriptures seem to say. However, the fuller counsel of scripture does not support your idea.

There is no textual evidence that they didn't experience being born of the spirit before the Cross. And you ignore the textual evidence which proves that they did. People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were passed from spiritual death into spiritual life by the Spirit. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.

All you do is change the subject as fast as you can in the hope that no one will notice that you have no intelligent answer to what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am sure we will get around to it again if the discussion continues long enough

I tell you what. You address what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63 in an intelligent way and then I will answer any point which you want me to answer.

 

[Shasta]

[Jerry Shugart;4994221]There is no textual evidence that they didn't experience being born of the spirit before the Cross. And you ignore the textual evidence which proves that they did. People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were passed from spiritual death into spiritual life by the Spirit. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.

All you do is change the subject as fast as you can in the hope that no one will notice that you have no intelligent answer to what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63.

I have explained my perspective on these scriptures and the wider contextual basis for my views, more than once. This does not work with your methodology because you are a "proof texter" much like the cultists that come to the door and try to establish their doctrines by interpreting verses in isolation of others.

All the words of Jesus came from the Spirit and therefore they were life. They were life because they led to life. However, according to the Bible, it was only after His death and resurrection that the fulfillment took place.

The direct cause-effect relationship between Jesus' resurrection and the new birth was not invented by me. It came from the Apostles, as Peter said,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,…(1 Peter 1:3-4)

Being born again of the Spirit, which is the relational aspect of salvation (John 17:3 - knowing Him), as well as final entrance into eternal life in the hereafter are ONLY possible because of Jesus' death and resurrection. This being the case, neither was possible beforehand.

Though life had been promised to Jesus' disciples (and other people) they could not receive it into their spirits UNTIL the Holy Spirit moved from dwelling with them to being IN them.

…16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you (John 14:17).

It is not unusual in the Bible for men moved by the Spirit to speak of things that "were not yet as though they were" and it would only be a very short period (after Jesus' teaching ministry) that all would be fulfilled.

 

[Shasta]

There is no textual evidence that they didn't experience being born of the spirit before the Cross. And you ignore the textual evidence which proves that they did. People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:

So your "evidence" is that fact that there was no "contrary evidence?" It does not work that way. If you are going to make the audacious claim that all righteous people throughout history were born again (even before the cross) then you should have some positive evidence.

When did the OT ever speak of a person being born of the Spirit? Jesus does not even use the term in His teaching ministry except with Nicodemus although the term was in prophecy. In fact, the Spirit did not move inside any of his followers until after the resurrection (John 20:22)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All the words of Jesus came from the Spirit and therefore they were life. They were life because they led to life. However, according to the Bible, it was only after His death and resurrection that the fulfillment took place.

So when people believed the Lord Jesus while He walked the earth they were not given spiritual life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Even though His words gave those who believed him life and it was the Spirit which gave them life they remained spiritually dead? And what kind of "death" and "life" was the Lord speaking of here?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Are you willing to argue that the lady to whom the Lord addressed his following words remained dead spiritually even though she was saved and had her sins forgiven?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

The direct cause-effect relationship between Jesus' resurrection and the new birth was not invented by me. It came from the Apostles, as Peter said,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,…(1 Peter 1:3-4)

Peter tells these believers that they have been given a new birth and that birth is "into" a living hope. The context indicates (vs.4-5) that the hope is the new, heavenly body which the Christian will put on when they meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Ti.2:13).​

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

In his commentary on 1 Peter 1:3 A.R. Fausset says that "Christ's resurrection is the cause of ours, (1) as an efficient cause (1Co 15:22); (2) as an exemplary cause, all the saints being about to rise after the similitude of His resurrection" (Fausset, Text Commentaries by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).

 

[Lon]

Only for the mother (Lev.12:17-18).

We can see that children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).​

Are we suppposed to believe that an infant is dead spiritually but yet that infant is described as being the LORD's reward? Hardly! And of course if an infant is born spiritually dead then it is unimaginable that he would be described this way:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

The Jewish commentaries were somewhat split on this. One of the reasons they gave for the mother's sacrifice, was for both husband and child, for bringing another with the curse of sin into the world. The other was something about cleansing, but this was a sin offering, so I didn't connect those dots. Jews today, believe they are born sinless because they do not 'need' a Savior. Yet, they do not give offerings for sin today either, and as such, their religion is cut-off from redemption that they deny. The commentary from Luke 2:22-24 says that it was given for the Lord Jesus Christ's presentation in the temple. For your thoughts. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The commentary from Luke 2:22-24 says that it was given for the Lord Jesus Christ's presentation in the temple.

"And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord) And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons" (Lk.2:22-24).

The sacrifice spoken of there is this one which was for the benefit of Mary:

"And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons—one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean" (Lev.12:8).​

 

[Shasta]

I tell you what. You address what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:63 in an intelligent way and then I will answer any point which you want me to answer.

Okay let us look at John chapter 6.

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst (John 6:35)

51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

A main point to note is that, when Jesus said His words were "spirit and life" He was not saying that His words themselves were the "bread" and "blood." Since the imagery He used is identical to that which He employed at The Last Supper it is useful to interpret both together (Matthew 26:26).

The "breaking" of His flesh and the "pouring out" of His blood at the cross would become a source of spiritual life for all His followers. By giving Himself to death Jesus would be able to give life to ("feed") those who believed as well as become a life-source WITHIN them (2 Corinthians 4:10).

Although Jesus spoke of this event as if it had already been accomplished the time of fulfillment had not yet come. The Last Adam could not become a "life giving spirit" to His Body until after the resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Only by indwelling believers through the Spirit could Jesus bring the inner experience of eternal life. He could guarantee final eternal life to everyone who believed in Him but the inner life could only happen when the Spirit came.

40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This verse "looking upon the son" refers to the snake Moses hung on a pole. Everyone who looked upon it would be healed. In the same way Jesus would be hung on the cross and those who looked upon Him (in faith) would be healed. Again, the fulfillment had to wait until Jesus actually was hung on the cross.

 

[Shasta]

I have said that there is a present and future aspect to eternal life. Final eternal life is what some people will enter in the world to come after we are judged. Paul calls this our "inheritance." The other part to eternal life is phenomenological and personal. This arises from our experience of being united to the Holy Spirit who is called the "down payment" or "earnest" OF our inheritance (Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22). The two are related but not identical. Before He atoned for our sins and rose from the dead Jesus could promise anyone a place in His Kingdom to come. The down payment aspect did not come until later.

As an illustration, let us look at Jesus when He went to the temple during the Feast of Tabernacles.

37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” (John 7:37)

If the scriptures went no farther Jerry would be claiming that because Jesus was speaking in the present tense He was offering the promise to them then and there. However, the scripture adds a certain detail:

39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39).

Very clearly those who believed in Jesus had not yet received the Spirit because Jesus was not yet raised from the dead. Now since it is through the Spirit that we are born again it is also clear that no one was born again before the resurrection. Actually, Jesus explained that there was a difference between how people experienced the Holy Spirit before and after the resurrection.

…16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.…(John 7:16-17)

Here Jesus says he WILL ask the father to send the Spirit to them in the future. If they already were in union with the Spirit this would be unnecessary. Of course, Jesus is not saying they are completely without the influence of Spirit. At one point, God had revealed to Peter who Jesus was through the Holy Spirit. There would, however, be a considerable change in their relationship to Him. Instead of being with them He would be IN them. Now, if they had been born again the Spirit would have already been inside them.

After the resurrection, Jesus returned and fulfilled His promise:

22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22)

Since the Spirit is the "down payment" on our final inheritance of eternal life, we have a little foretaste of what that will one day be like.