You voted incorrectly Nonon -
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
Heaven refers to the New Earth and New Heaven in the Bible. It is referred to as the Temple in Revelation, that is, the Most Holy Place in the heavenly Tabernacle. The second curtain to this place is opened after Jesus. Jesus is currently the only one (symbolically ever as a human) entered.
Saints such as Elijah and Enoch are supposed to be in another location called Abraham's Bosom (in the Third Heaven) to continue to bear witnesses for God.
Saints such as Elijah and Enoch are supposed to be in another location called Abraham's Bosom (in the Third Heaven) to continue to bear witnesses for God.
You're right - not with me
Rosenritter
New member
Heaven refers to the sky above, the space above our earth, and the throne of God. That is why Paul speaks of a vision of being caught up into the "third heaven" 2 Corinthians 12:2 when he speaks of visions from the Lord. That's also why it says the stars are in heaven and that birds fly in the heaven above. When Jesus says that "no man has ascended to heaven" he is obviously speaking of the third heaven, which excludes "Enoch and Elijah" being in heaven in any form (as they certainly aren't on the moon or in the clouds.)
Further, if we needed any more verification on this, Paul plainly says that Enoch died and received not the promises, and that his hope is in a better resurrection. It's in Hebrews 11. We have a whole massive chapter in 1 Corinthians telling us that the hope of the Christian is the resurrection of the dead, and that IS Paul's definition of the gospel. We have Jesus telling us that no man has ascended to heaven. And now we have a huge long passage in Hebrews telling us that the perished saints have not yet been rewarded.
Heb 11:5, 13 KJV
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:32-40 KJV
(32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
(33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
(36) And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
(37) They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(38) (Of whom the world was not worthy, ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
... and he lists Enoch among those perished saints. Tell me, if saints were in heaven, why do we not have a chapter telling us so, and how come we have so many places in the bible that contradict such a teaching?
He says clearly, "that they without us should not be made perfect." That means that the perfection he speaks of to the Corinthians happens all at once for everyone. At the resurrection of the dead. Without which we cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Job 5:1 KJV -
Rosenritter
New member
Job 5:1 KJV
Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
I have no idea what you are trying to say with this. Or ask about this. Could you clarify please?
Ephesians 2:6 KJV -
Rosenritter
New member
Would you please do me a favor and say what it is you think a passage is saying when you quote it? Otherwise I have to choose between ignoring the post or risking a straw man argument as I guess what it is you meant to say.
I have heard one person say that Ephesians 2:6 meant that he himself was sitting in heaven at that very moment. After all, the translation uses the present tense, so it seemed that he meant that he was staring down at us. But when it says "raised up' we know we are not yet raised, it is speaking of a future event. Paul says this happens at Christ's return, and Revelation agrees. Sitting in heavenly places would be just as future, requiring "raised up" to happen first. The fulfillment is in Revelation when Christ returns and we with him rule as kings and priests.
Eph 2:6-7 KJV
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Although he begins with an analogy "dead in sins" and "quickened us together with Christ" the analogy only has meaning as he relates it to future events, that is, the resurrection of the dead and Christ's triumphant entry into his kingdom as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. All future events.
The present tense has application in that the promise of a thing seems tangible when the promise is sure. We "have" eternal life because we can trust the person that will fulfill it when the time comes. We still die because technically we don't have it yet. We have the promise of the thing, not the thing itself.
We are seated there in Christ Jesus, in the meantime we live our life in the physical dimension.
All I know is the English rendering. Saints is used for both Israelites and the Body, so it must refer to those with everlasting life. So yes.
Rosenritter
New member
1Co 15:53-54 KJV
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When do the saints receive eternal life?
It depends on which group. Those that have to endure to the end, will have to endure to the end. I didn't.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Having believed, I moved from death to life. Those of us in the Body of Christ, receive his life, and he will not take it from us like he did Saul. I say this because I don't know who you are or if you are in the Body. Many on TOL are headed to hell as they reject his free gift to us.
Rosenritter
New member
Notice that the passage says "Holy Spirit of promise" - but what does that Holy Spirit promise? Have you received the promise of eternal life, or are you literally immortal right now? If you're in doubt check to see if you are aging.
2Co 5:4-5 KJV
(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
If you have the Holy Spirit, that is the earnest of immortality and eternal life. If you have been giving the Spirit in earnest that means that you don't actually have the promised possession yet. That's the meaning of the word "earnest." It is given in place of what you will receive in the future, a something in advance of the future possession. A classic dictionary should support the meaning of the word.
Not the slightest bit of doubt. The Spirit is alive, the body is dead because of sin. I do not regard the flesh for that reason. If you think you should, then listen to Paul, whom you are quoting who says we regard no one according to the flesh.
Rosenritter
New member
Either you are a literal zombie or you have descended into the realm of metaphor. We weren't talking in terms of metaphor. Can we stay on subject?
Rosenritter
New member
Ktoyou,
If the rapture is said to happen at the last trump, and at Christ's return, and the tribulation begins with a trump and continues until the last trump, then how does the rapture occur before the tribulations?
Mat 24:30-31 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Co 15:52 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
All of that is in agreement that Christ's return and the rapture occurs with the LAST trumpet. So what are the other trumpets, pray tell?
Rev 9:14-15 KJV
(14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
(15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Those other trumpets are part and parcel of the tribulation. The saints of God have endured worse than that. Sawn in half, burnt alive, fed to lions it says in Hebrews. So that they might obtain a better resurrection. Of whom the world is not worthy.
Are you able to say that the last trumpet is somehow before the first trumpet? That's what you'd have to do to say that the rapture occurs before the tribulations.
See, - saints in heaven now -
Rosenritter
New member
Huh? If they perished that they might obtain a better resurrection, how does that translate into "They died so that they might enter into heaven without need of resurrection? I really don't understand that leap of logic.
:chuckle: Saints in heaven is winning the poll . . that proves it