Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[God's Truth]

That's a very powerful passage- it's a rare instance in which the saint is literally defined and illustrated

God bless, GD. I always liked you
#Sum1sGruj #Crucible #High Cherub

Is that you Crucible? I always liked you to even though we have some different beliefs.

 

[jamie]

"Enoch lived sixty-five years and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years." (Genesis 5:21-23)

 

[Rosenritter]

I appreciate all the words that you post, but I never understand your beliefs. Do you believe there are saints in heaven now? Do you believe in the doctrine of the trinity? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

1. Do I believe there are saints in heaven now? No. Hebrews 11:13, KJV "These all died in faith, not having received the promises..." Do I believe in the resurrection at Christ's coming and his kingdom? Yes. 1 Corinthians 15:52 "...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

2. Do I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? Officially no. I don't say I believe in something that requires me to ask what a person means when they use the term (Romans 14;23, "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin.") Although there are some people who explain "Trinity" in terms that seem acceptable and compatible with scripture, in my experience the people that demand rote allegiance to "Trinity" as a "heretic test" don't bat an eye when it's explained in terms identical to polytheism. If you wanted to ask me about specific statements that you consider "Trinity" I can answer those happily. But otherwise, my default answer is "no."

3. Do I believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes. In the strongest and highest meaning of the word, without equivocation or reservation, as Lord and Creator and LORD and besides him there is no God. Colossians 2:9 KJV (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I'm quite vocal in this regard.

 

[Rosenritter]

Enoch should have never been mentioned in the Scriptures.

He gave birth to too much heresy.
But, maybe that was the point :idunno:

I doubt that Enoch authored the "Book of Enoch." For example, the sixth and seventh books of Moses are manuals of witchcraft. Just because someone puts someone else's name on something doesn't necessarily mean they wrote it.

 

[Rosenritter]

And only accepted by Ethiopians and likely a few stray communions.

Whatever happened with Enoch is interesting to wonder about, but nobody really knows why it happened. It is a hidden history lain:

Genesis 5:23-24 KJV
(23) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
(24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

As I understand these together, Enoch lived three hundred and sixty five years before God took him. Whether God took him so that he would not see death (his own premature death) or the death of others (mankind murdering each other, or being wiped out by the judgment of God) is hard to say, but either might be compatible with the statement in Hebrews that Enoch was also among those who "died in faith." As to where God took him, we know it was "someplace else" where "others couldn't find him" but past that it's speculation.

There's not much given for us to be dogmatic about the details here.

 

[Rosenritter]

Agreed.

Where were Moses and Elijah hanging out while Jesus walked the earth?
They were seen by disciples speaking with Jesus. Matthew 17:3

I would assume that Moses and Elijah were dead while Jesus walked the earth. I suppose that they could have been raised before this time but to me that seems less likely than Christ's explanation that what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Hypothetically, if Moses and Elijah had been walking side by side through the streets of Jerusalem, how would anyone have recognized them? You might recognize Abraham Lincoln or George Washington because their faces show on money, but the Jews didn't keep pictures of people at all. With that in mind, look at the verses that come next:

Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.


If they had seen the literal manifestation of Elijah, why are they asking about Elijah like this now? The Elijah that Jesus talks of when he explains to them shows that it was intended to be understood in a symbolic context.

Matthew 17:13 KJV
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The context (and Christ's explanation) does point towards this being a symbolic vision, rather than a literal appearance of specific persons. Thus my assumption that Moses and Elijah remained dead and buried during this time, rather than being specifically raised for a cameo appearance.

 

[way 2 go]

where ever it was, he eventually died, because Paul says that Enoch died, not having received the promises.

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death

 

[Rosenritter]

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death

Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?

Hebrews 11:4-13 KJV
(4) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(11) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
(12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Last I checked, "all" included the people who were specifically named in the foregoing list. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sara are all named as "these all died in faith, not having received the promises." Of all the people he could have named, seeing as Paul specifically named these five people, I'm inclined to think he knew what he was talking about.

To clarify, Mr. Go, Are you disputing the inspiration of verse 13, or challenging the definition of the word "all?" Just needed someplace to try out your new Star Wars meme? Or was that just simple trolling?

Spoiler

Yes, I know it's Star Trek.

 

[Truster]

Upon death the soul is dead, the body deteriorates, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God stores the spirit so it can be placed into a new body when the time comes.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohim, and for the testimony which they held".

Every time you post you show your blind ignorance.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Speaking of Enoch....


Heb. 11:13 "These all died in faith",

Elijah did not die in the normal sense neither will those who are translated without dying at the coming of Christ, but in sense every man will die from this body and life to the next.

 

[God's Truth]

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death

That was about not seeing death in his physical body; he was taken up in his spirit without experiencing death of his body. That does not mean his body went to heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

Elijah did not die in the normal sense neither will those who are translated without dying at the coming of Christ, but in sense every man will die from this body and life to the next.

You are a soul sleep believer, a doctrine of death.

 

[God's Truth]

Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?

Hebrews 11:4-13 KJV
(4) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(11) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
(12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Last I checked, "all" included the people who were specifically named in the foregoing list. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sara are all named as "these all died in faith, not having received the promises." Of all the people he could have named, seeing as Paul specifically named these five people, I'm inclined to think he knew what he was talking about.

To clarify, Mr. Go, Are you disputing the inspiration of verse 13, or challenging the definition of the word "all?" Just needed someplace to try out your new Star Wars meme? Or was that just simple trolling?

Spoiler

Yes, I know it's Star Trek.

They hadn't received the promise while they lived in their body.

However, they did see the promise while they lived by their own spirit.

Hebrews 21:12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

 

[God's Truth]

Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?

Hebrews 11:4-13 KJV
(4) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(11) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
(12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Last I checked, "all" included the people who were specifically named in the foregoing list. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sara are all named as "these all died in faith, not having received the promises." Of all the people he could have named, seeing as Paul specifically named these five people, I'm inclined to think he knew what he was talking about.

To clarify, Mr. Go, Are you disputing the inspiration of verse 13, or challenging the definition of the word "all?" Just needed someplace to try out your new Star Wars meme? Or was that just simple trolling?

Spoiler

Yes, I know it's Star Trek.

You do not even recognize those scripture above show that those righteous lived on in their spirits.

Abel though dead STILL SPEAKS.
Enoch taken up.
Abraham seeing Jesus' day and was glad.
The spirits who disobeyed in the time of Noah living in prison/hell, and being preached the gospel too so that in their spirit they can obey God.

 

[God's Truth]

I would assume that Moses and Elijah were dead while Jesus walked the earth. I suppose that they could have been raised before this time but to me that seems less likely than Christ's explanation that what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Hypothetically, if Moses and Elijah had been walking side by side through the streets of Jerusalem, how would anyone have recognized them? You might recognize Abraham Lincoln or George Washington because their faces show on money, but the Jews didn't keep pictures of people at all. With that in mind, look at the verses that come next:

Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.


If they had seen the literal manifestation of Elijah, why are they asking about Elijah like this now? The Elijah that Jesus talks of when he explains to them shows that it was intended to be understood in a symbolic context.

Matthew 17:13 KJV
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The context (and Christ's explanation) does point towards this being a symbolic vision, rather than a literal appearance of specific persons. Thus my assumption that Moses and Elijah remained dead and buried during this time, rather than being specifically raised for a cameo appearance.

Are you accusing Jesus of giving some false vision? The vision was not false. That passage proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

 

[jamie]

Are you accusing Jesus of giving some false vision? The vision was not false. That passage proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

Good point. That's what God told Adam isn't it, that if he sinned he would live forever.

The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body is a no-brainer. Right?

 

[Tambora]

I would assume that Moses and Elijah were dead while Jesus walked the earth. I suppose that they could have been raised before this time but to me that seems less likely than Christ's explanation that what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Hypothetically, if Moses and Elijah had been walking side by side through the streets of Jerusalem, how would anyone have recognized them? You might recognize Abraham Lincoln or George Washington because their faces show on money, but the Jews didn't keep pictures of people at all. With that in mind, look at the verses that come next:

Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.


If they had seen the literal manifestation of Elijah, why are they asking about Elijah like this now? The Elijah that Jesus talks of when he explains to them shows that it was intended to be understood in a symbolic context.

Matthew 17:13 KJV
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The context (and Christ's explanation) does point towards this being a symbolic vision, rather than a literal appearance of specific persons. Thus my assumption that Moses and Elijah remained dead and buried during this time, rather than being specifically raised for a cameo appearance.

I can understand the thought process you present about 'visions', and it is something to consider.

Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.
I don't see that as being the case when the disciples saw Jesus with Moses and Elijah.
It is written as if they are fully awake and aware, even to the point of being worried if they should build a tent for them.
And they hear the voice of the LORD and are so afraid that they fell on their faces.
None of this seems to imply that they were asleep or in a trance when this took place.

What type of body they had when the disciples saw them is unknown.
It is a good assumption to think their old flesh bodies were still in the grave, as was David's.
It is my assumption that what the disciples saw was their spirits, and not their resurrected bodies.
One of those rare instances when the human eye can see the spiritual realm, as when Elijah saw the army of angels all around him and asked GOD to open the eyes of his servant so he could see them also. 2 Kings 6:17
It was really happening, and was not just a dream.

But I leave my options open for further study.

I have seen or heard many types of explanation as to the importance of this story, and what it's intended message revealed.
They seem incomplete to me, as if there is something more to the story.

I don't think John the Baptist being spoken of as Elijah has anything to do with this story.
As he is said to have come in the spirit of Elijah. Luke 1:17

Good study!
Thanks for your responses.

 

[God's Truth]

Good point. That's what God told Adam isn't it, that if he sinned he would live forever.

The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body is a no-brainer. Right?

Just answer the question. Did Jesus give a false vision?
I have already explained it to you many times that a body dying is experiencing death---even when the spirit lives on.

 

[jamie]

Sin is spiritual. Jesus died physically and spiritually.

We all die once, but thanks to Jesus we need not die twice.

 

[way 2 go]

Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?

context

in context all does not mean every one as Enoch did not see death :duh:

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death