Are Calvinists saved?

[Robert Pate]

Robert Pate does not judge by what he is told that some people believe. After being refuted and corrected countless times by several posters, he continues knowingly spreading false witness by posting the same lies and condemning people based on those lies and other suppositions.

In the Gospel we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus. In Calvinism they are saved by being predestinated. Christ appears to have little to nothing to do with it. In the Gospel Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. In Calvinism Jesus did not save the world, he only saved "Some Certain Persons". These certain persons appear to be spiritually blind. When confronted with the truth of the scriptures they cannot see, nor can they hear God's word, which is the Gospel.

 

[patrick jane]

In the Gospel we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus. In Calvinism they are saved by being predestinated. Christ appears to have little to nothing to do with it. In the Gospel Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. In Calvinism Jesus did not save the world, he only saved "Some Certain Persons". These certain persons appear to be spiritually blind. When confronted with the truth of the scriptures they cannot see, nor can they hear God's word, which is the Gospel.

Do calvinists believe that only other calvinists are saved? And all others are reprobate?

 

[daqq]

But YOUR god REFUSES to allow billions of people to hear and believe - you will die in your sins

They are those the devil sowed in the earth Mat. 13:38-39.

~~~~~

That is precisely the reason Hitler felt justified in exterminating six million Jews, (and about twelve million people total by some estimates). The anti-Semitic writings of Luther were all over the streets of Nazi Germany in the 1930's leading up to WWII. He may not have been a full blown Calvinist by his professed faith, (which was Christianity believe it or not), but the doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY greatly influenced his thinking and many of his underlings. But if one considers "unbelievers" to be totally depraved, like wild beasts or animals, and at the same time if one is not serving the God of the Bible then he or she is serving "the god of this world", (after all that is what it says, right?), then such a one who is unbelieving is deemed nothing more than a subhuman; a "totally depraved" wild beast that is either used or even worse possessed by the devil. To the distorted mind of the Calvinist where does this doctrine then lead when such a doctrine becomes political in nature? What would stop a ruthless Calvinist minded dictator from slaughtering six million "totally depraved wild animals possessed by the devil"? The only thing Calvinism was predestinated for was to give rise to some of the worst murderers of all time, (because Calvinists are merely predestinated by their own creators, Luther and Calvin).

 

[nikolai_42]

That is precisely the reason Hitler felt justified in exterminating six million Jews, (and about twelve million people total by some estimates). The anti-Semitic writings of Luther were all over the streets of Nazi Germany in the 1930's leading up to WWII. He may not have been a full blown Calvinist by his professed faith, (which was Christianity believe it or not), but the doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY greatly influenced his thinking and many of his underlings. But if one considers "unbelievers" to be totally depraved, like wild beasts or animals, and at the same time if one is not serving the God of the Bible then he or she is serving "the god of this world", (after all that is what it says, right?), then such a one who is unbelieving is deemed nothing more than a subhuman; a "totally depraved" wild beast that is either used or even worse possessed by the devil. To the distorted mind of the Calvinist where does this doctrine then lead when such a doctrine becomes political in nature? What would stop a ruthless Calvinist minded dictator from slaughtering six million "totally depraved wild animals possessed by the devil"? The only thing Calvinism was predestinated for was to give rise to some of the worst murderers of all time, (because Calvinists are merely predestinated by their own creators, Luther and Calvin).

Sounds like Hitler was one of the best examples of the truth of total depravity. The mind that is at enmity with God will use anything it can find to justify itself and its own actions.

 

[daqq]

Sounds like Hitler was one of the best examples of the truth of total depravity. The mind that is at enmity with God will use anything it can find to justify itself and its own actions.

What people like Hitler show is that the ideology stemming from Luther and Calvin appeals primarily to the psychopath who already knows that he is trapped in his own total depravity; but that does not mean that everyone else is truly "totally depraved". So when such a one hears that everyone else is totally depraved, just as he himself is, then it makes his ears tingle because he suddenly becomes justified without any "reform" or change in his state of mind whatsoever. There are many studies showing a direct link between Luther and Hitler, (both being German nationalist leaders even though they lived some four centuries years apart), the following is simply one pick out of many hits that come up in a search but this kind of reality check really should be required reading for anyone claiming to be a Christian and leaning toward Calvinism, or Reformed, or whatever other names that system goes by nowadays, (Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection).

 

[daqq]

Sounds like Hitler was one of the best examples of the truth of total depravity. The mind that is at enmity with God will use anything it can find to justify itself and its own actions.

What people like Hitler show is that the ideology stemming from Luther and Calvin appeals primarily to the psychopath who already knows that he is trapped in his own total depravity; but that does not mean that everyone else is truly "totally depraved". So when such a one hears that everyone else is totally depraved, just as he himself is, then it makes his ears tingle because he suddenly becomes justified without any "reform" or change in his state of mind whatsoever. There are many studies showing a direct link between Luther and Hitler, (both being German nationalist leaders even though they lived some four centuries years apart), the following is simply one pick out of many hits that come up in a search but this kind of reality check really should be required reading for anyone claiming to be a Christian and leaning toward Calvinism, or Reformed, or whatever other names that system goes by nowadays, (Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection).

Or I suppose you could just take it from some of the past and present professed Reformers and Calvinists and their own statements from right here in this forum. Here are some statements from one named "dialm" who is apparently is no longer around here, (gee, I wonder why). Does any of this rhetoric sound familiar from about seventy five years ago in the previous century?

We are going to do this thread a little different because most of the members here are just not up to the task. So we are going to have an auction. And since the Calvinists are the brains and this is my thread I will be the Auctioneer, (thank you very much).

Now we are going to set some ground rules.

1 the Bible is the rule book
2 the auctioneer may not bid
3 participants must obtain a bid number to bid
4 if you find yourself up for bid you may not participate in the bidding
5 when the gable falls the bidding is over
6 all sales are final

Good luck and happy bidding.

Ah yes, ye good olde auction, who can stand the excitement; and what does he decide to auction off in his thread right here in this forum? He starts off by setting a strictly physical subhuman value for a human being which, according to him, is $4.50! What a bargain! Where, O where, did the Calvinist Dialm get this sort of thinking from?

Yes Mr. Atheist. Don't be timid. Step right up and get your number. See, we have it ready for you.

Crazy 8 (For the fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'.)

That is right Mr. Atheist. Go ahead kick the tires. We want you to be satisfied with the product if you are the lucky winner. What is that you ask? What is it made out of?

65% Oxygen
18% Carbon
10% Hydrogen
3% Nitrogen
1.5% Calcium
1% Phosphorous
0.35% Potassium
0.25% Sulfur
0.15% Sodium
0.15% Chlorine
0.05% Magnesium
0.0004% Iron
0.00004% Iodine

What? How much is all that worth in today's money.

Oh about $4.50.

Well I see you have brought your good friend Mr. Judaism. No he can't bid Mr. Atheist. You know the rules. We will be auctioning him off shortly. There standing behind you is a very interested bidder.

Ah yes, Calvinism in a nutshell, proudly proclaimed by one of its mindless drones.
I suspect he really ruined it for the more secretive types . . . :chuckle:

 

[nikolai_42]

What people like Hitler show is that the ideology stemming from Luther and Calvin appeals primarily to the psychopath who already knows that he is trapped in his own total depravity; but that does not mean that everyone else is truly "totally depraved". So when such a one hears that everyone else is totally depraved, just as he himself is, then it makes his ears tingle because he suddenly becomes justified without any "reform" or change in his state of mind whatsoever. There are many studies showing a direct link between Luther and Hitler, (both being German nationalist leaders even though they lived some four centuries years apart), the following is simply one pick out of many hits that come up in a search but this kind of reality check really should be required reading for anyone claiming to be a Christian and leaning toward Calvinism, or Reformed, or whatever other names that system goes by nowadays, (Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection).

I don't have time to give any more of a response at the moment, than to say this. To compare a theological response given by a 16th century theologian responding to theological unbelief to that of a 20th century political figure looking to gain power for himself and get rid of a people he harbors resentment for is - at best - facile and anachronistic. Remembering that theology and politics of Luther's day was inextricably intertwined in a way it isn't today should at least inform one on the mind of Luther in making what were - in some cases - rather harsh recommendations. Reading it in the context of a post-Nazi world only further heightens the sensitivity to the undercurrent of what Luther said. Jesus Himself could be said to be Anti-Semitic in the way He chastises the Pharisees of His day. Calling them the children of Satan (their Father) for example. Luther (I believe) distinguishes between those Jews who are of Moses and those of Caesar (which class I think he lumps those Pharisees into).

The point being that you have 20th century historians - many of whom are either atheists or want to assess everything in terms of modern day sensibilities or psychoanalysis - that try to treat things with an overly simple approach and make conclusions like the above that rouse the rabble (which some of Luther's own statements did - to his sorrow). We are overly sensitive to names and stereotypes and tend to pay less attention to the characteristics that are freighted about in those categories.

This is in no way to defend Hitler or exonerate Luther in every word he said - but don't Hezekiah (2 Kings 18). He was certainly not sensitive to the religious choices of Israel...

 

[nikolai_42]

Or I suppose you could just take it from some of the past and present professed Reformers and Calvinists and their own statements from right here in this forum. Here are some statements from one named "dialm" who is apparently is no longer around here, (gee, I wonder why). Does any of this rhetoric sound familiar from about seventy five years ago in the previous century?



Ah yes, ye good olde auction, who can stand the excitement; and what does he decide to auction off in his thread right here in this forum? He starts off by setting a strictly physical subhuman value for a human being which, according to him, is $4.50! What a bargain! Where, O where, did the Calvinist Dialm get this sort of thinking from?








Ah yes, Calvinism in a nutshell, proudly proclaimed by one of its mindless drones.
I suspect he really ruined it for the more secretive types . . . :chuckle:

Um...what does dialm have to do with this?

 

[daqq]

I don't have time to give any more of a response at the moment, than to say this. To compare a theological response given by a 16th century theologian responding to theological unbelief to that of a 20th century political figure looking to gain power for himself and get rid of a people he harbors resentment for is - at best - facile and anachronistic. Remembering that theology and politics of Luther's day was inextricably intertwined in a way it isn't today should at least inform one on the mind of Luther in making what were - in some cases - rather harsh recommendations. Reading it in the context of a post-Nazi world only further heightens the sensitivity to the undercurrent of what Luther said. Jesus Himself could be said to be Anti-Semitic in the way He chastises the Pharisees of His day. Calling them the children of Satan (their Father) for example. Luther (I believe) distinguishes between those Jews who are of Moses and those of Caesar (which class I think he lumps those Pharisees into).

The point being that you have 20th century historians - many of whom are either atheists or want to assess everything in terms of modern day sensibilities or psychoanalysis - that try to treat things with an overly simple approach and make conclusions like the above that rouse the rabble (which some of Luther's own statements did - to his sorrow). We are overly sensitive to names and stereotypes and tend to pay less attention to the characteristics that are freighted about in those categories.

This is in no way to defend Hitler or exonerate Luther in every word he said - but don't Hezekiah (2 Kings 18). He was certainly not sensitive to the religious choices of Israel...

You would have perhaps done much better to have read the link I provided. I took the time to read it just before I posted it here because I wanted to make sure it said what I knew it was going to say, (I have never seen that link before today). History and the facts say something entirely different from what you postulate in an attempt to hide the truth about what actually has occurred because of the very teachings of both Luther and Calvin. For not reading the link or any other similar information that would disagree with what you appear to believe one can only assume that you speak from either ignorance of the facts or, even worse, willing blindness.

Um...what does dialm have to do with this?

He proudly proclaimed himself a Calvinist, even in the very quote posted above and highlighted in red, and that is the topic of this thread so his post is a truthful example of the underbelly of what is Calvinism. He also clearly proclaimed the superiority of his intellect in his own simple little way, (saying, "since the Calvinists are the brains" in one of the posts quoted above), just as we see other Calvinists doing on nearly a daily basis around here. "Lon" is another perfect example of a Calvinist thinker around here, who makes no bones about his own highly superior IQ, as he plainly and clearly stated to me in another recent thread where he was not able to actually argue from the scripture for his theological positions. I was not speaking from ignorance when I suggested that most Calvinists are psychopaths; it is not unusual in our society for one to be a seemingly upstanding member of our communities, and yet still be a psychopath, most politicians are also technically psychopaths but simply do not take it to the level of people such as Luther and Hitler. Psychopaths always make good leaders but only until if and when they gain total control over anything, then, watch out.

 

[nikolai_42]

You would have perhaps done much better to have read the link I provided. I took the time to read it just before I posted it here because I wanted to make sure it said what I knew it was going to say, (I have never seen that link before today). History and the facts say something entirely different from what you postulate in an attempt to hide the truth about what actually has occurred because of the very teachings of both Luther and Calvin. For not reading the link or any other similar information that would disagree with what you appear to believe one can only assume that you speak from either ignorance of the facts or, even worse, willing blindness.

I fully intend on reading the link - but my response was just my initial reaction to what I saw when I looked at it. Luther is being judged based on one work (or maybe two....not sure) out of scores of writings that address the scriptures and their teachings directly. From the conclusion :

One must remember, however, that Luther’s works influenced Hitler and the Nazi party, and that by prosecuting one the other must be prosecuted as well.

How often did Hitler quote from Luther on Romans? How much did Hitler understand and draw on the majority of what Luther wrote? Are we to switch to psychoanalysis to determine that Hitler and Luther were close cousins both driven by anti-semitism (Luther is called an egomaniac later on in the conclusion) because Luther had anger against "the Jews"? Do we find Hitler writing or saying things like this :

If the Apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would have been no Christians among the Gentiles. But seeing that they have acted in such a brotherly way towards us, we in turn should act in a brotherly way towards the Jews in case we might convert some.

That Luther did write it - and that this was impetus for the anti-Nazi belligerence of another Lutheran (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) should be enough to question that Luther should be considered a sort of spiritual father of Adolf Hitler. I repeat that conditions and contexts were entirely different and to make such sweeping conclusions (aided significantly by psychology and atheistic and non-Christian writers - on specifically theological matters) makes an alarm go off for me right off the bat.

Again - I haven't read the full essay (and I will) and it wouldn't be a surprise to me if there were things Luther believed that were problematic (maybe seriously so). But the historical and theological equations that are being attempted are stretches.

 

[Nanja]

That is precisely the reason Hitler felt justified in exterminating six million Jews, (and about twelve million people total by some estimates). The anti-Semitic writings of Luther were all over the streets of Nazi Germany in the 1930's leading up to WWII. He may not have been a full blown Calvinist by his professed faith, (which was Christianity believe it or not), but the doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY greatly influenced his thinking and many of his underlings. But if one considers "unbelievers" to be totally depraved, like wild beasts or animals, and at the same time if one is not serving the God of the Bible then he or she is serving "the god of this world", (after all that is what it says, right?), then such a one who is unbelieving is deemed nothing more than a subhuman; a "totally depraved" wild beast that is either used or even worse possessed by the devil. To the distorted mind of the Calvinist where does this doctrine then lead when such a doctrine becomes political in nature? What would stop a ruthless Calvinist minded dictator from slaughtering six million "totally depraved wild animals possessed by the devil"? The only thing Calvinism was predestinated for was to give rise to some of the worst murderers of all time, (because Calvinists are merely predestinated by their own creators, Luther and Calvin).

Nanja

They are those the devil sowed in the earth Mat. 13:38-39.

~~~~~

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Those scriptures are the Truth 2 Tim. 3:16, no question about it.

The good seed is God's Elect Sons / Children, but the tares are the devil's seed.

~~~~~

 

[daqq]

Nanja




38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Those scriptures are the Truth 2 Tim. 3:16, no question about it.

The good seed is God's Elect Sons / Children, but the tares are the devil's seed.

~~~~~

Have you never thought that maybe you yourself might have some "tares" to weed out of your own set of doctrines? Isn't that truly what this entire exercise called discipleship is really about? Who says that tares and goats are literal people? Yeshua never says so anywhere but that is rather your own literal physical minded interpretation of his words. And in addition Yeshua states that the kingdom of Elohim does not come with ocular-visual observation because the kingdom of Elohim is WITHIN you:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Therefore every disciple has "tares" that need to be bundled for the burning; it is allegory and parable stacked with idiom and hyperbole. It is not about literal people being cast into a literal physical eternal hellfire in eternal conscious torment. The "tares" dwell in the flesh, (that is, sin, Romans 7), and we therefore have been given the will of Elohim in the Testimony of Yeshua and all the apostolic writers on how to deal with the tares and cut them off before they choke the seed of the Word out of our own hearts, (Parable of the Sower).

 

[Nanja]

Have you never thought that maybe you yourself might have some "tares" to weed out of your own set of doctrines? Isn't that truly what this entire exercise called discipleship is really about? Who says that tares and goats are literal people? Yeshua never says so anywhere but that is rather your own literal physical minded interpretation of his words. And in addition Yeshua states that the kingdom of Elohim does not come with ocular-visual observation because the kingdom of Elohim is WITHIN you:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Therefore every disciple has "tares" that need to be bundled for the burning; it is allegory and parable stacked with idiom and hyperbole. It is not about literal people being cast into a literal physical eternal hellfire in eternal conscious torment. The "tares" dwell in the flesh, (that is, sin, Romans 7), and we therefore have been given the will of Elohim in the Testimony of Yeshua and all the apostolic writers on how to deal with the tares and cut them off before they choke the seed of the Word out of our own hearts, (Parable of the Sower).

Jesus clearly explains the meaning of that parable in vs. 38 and 39:

Mat. 13:38-39
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Mat. 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


And Jesus said:


John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

nanja

Those scriptures are the Truth 2 Tim. 3:16, no question about it.

The good seed is God's Elect Sons / Children, but the tares are the devil's seed.

Absolutely ! Yes, they belong to the devil, and consequently out of the realm of Redemption.

 

[beloved57]

pate

In the Gospel we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

But you teach that those Christ did and died for wind up in hell lost in their sins. So you are in contradiction !

 

[Nanja]

nanja



Absolutely ! Yes, they belong to the devil, and consequently out of the realm of Redemption.

Exactly!

God made them that way for His Purpose:

Prov. 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

~~~~~

 

[Clete]

What say you?

That depends on the Calvinist. Perfect doctrine is not required for salvation but you also don't get to believe anything you want either.

If a particular Calvinist willingly subordinates God's righteousness to other attributes that the bible doesn't even ascribe to Him then I, at the very least, take that as a huge red flag. Or if the Calvinists equates Calvinism's distinctive doctrines (the TULIP and others) with the gospel itself, that too is a gigantic red flag. It is, in my estimation, wiser to give such a Calvinist the benefit of the doubt and presume that he is NOT saved and treat him accordingly.

We do no favors to anyone by assuming that a person who worships the wrong god is saved because he uses the right words in spite of himself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beloved57]

Exactly!

God made them that way for His Purpose:

Prov. 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

~~~~~

Amen. To demonstrate the riches of His Grace towards the Vessels of mercy I believe Rom 9:21-23

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


²³And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


​It also demonstrates Gods absolute Sovereignty over His creatures !

 

[Nanja]

Amen. To demonstrate the riches of His Grace towards the Vessels of mercy I believe Rom 9:21-23

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


²³And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Agree, and just as the parable of the wheat and tares ends:

Mat. 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I believe that God's Love was never for any others, but exclusively for His Vessels of Mercy which Christ made Righteous by His Blood Is. 53:6, His Sheep.

​It also demonstrates Gods absolute Sovereignty over His creatures !

Amen, God does as He so desires with His Creation Job 23:13-14; Ps. 115:3, and has reserved the wicked he made Prov. 16:4 to the day of destruction Job 21:30.

~~~~~

 

[daqq]

Jesus clearly explains the meaning of that parable in vs. 38 and 39:

Mat. 13:38-39
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Mat. 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


And Jesus said:


John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

So then, because Calvinism does not believe Yeshua when he clearly and emphatically states that the kingdom of Elohim does not come with physical observation of the eyes, nor ocular visual evidence, and because Calvinism also rejects the clear emphatic statement of Yeshua from within the very same statement when he says also in the above quote that the kingdom of Elohim is within us, they therefore have twisted God into a racist who hated a man named Esau for no reason. And they see Esau entirely as a literal physical man with literal physical seed line descendants: so the Calvinist says to himself that God hated Esau, "just because", for no other reason except that as Creator God has the right to hate who He made and love another whom He made, and to love or hate whom He will without reason. Again, you and your kind have made a god just like yourselves and not followed what is written of the true God in His Word. You have made for yourselves an ethnic cleanser to justify yourselves and your desires.