ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

[Mateo]

Otay Mr. Dave.

As I stated earlier, being a practicing nonismatist, I am disinclined to embrace any of the "isms" which have grown up around the word of God. I am one of those most unique of creatures; someone who has come to a belief in the veracity of the word of God strictly by reading it and believing it, outside of the context of denominationalism. Said another way. I just picked the book up, read it, and believed it; and I had no other direction but the "spirit of truth" as John called it.

One of the interesting aspects of my spiritual upbringing is that I can almost always identify someone who has come to their belief the same way I did. We invariably agree about what it says. Contention arises mostly when I engage those who have come to believe in the word of God in the denominational context.

After my "three years in the desert", as it were, I began to
review some of the thoughts of others concerning the faith
I had come to embrace. One interesting book I came across was "The Two Babylons" by a Mr. Hyslop. He was able to document, to my satisfaction, the evolution of the notion of a God and his female consort giving birth to said god again after his death, from Nimrod, his wife and son, to Osiris, Isis, and Simiramus, to the grecian Gods and later to Jesus, Mary and Joseph by the hand of Gnotics who later brought it to be codified into the Catholic cannon.

To shoehorn the story of Jesus' incarnation on this planet into this litany of foolishness Mary had to become "the mother of God" in order for "God" to die and be reborn. There are many instances in scripture where Jesus makes it very clear that He and His father are different and that he is the subordinate.

A Messianic Jew friend of mine who posts to this forum once said, "the Protestants didn't protest enough". I haven't come up with a better way to say it but what I used to say was, "although Mr. Luther did a great service in what he did at the end of the day he was still a Catholic and brought forward into his theology several Catholic innovations one of which was the notion that Jesus was God".

If you get the chance, look at a panoramic view of the vatican. You will see what the Bible refers to as a "grove" in the courtyard before it. It is what we now call an obelesk covered with Egyptian verbage honoring "Ra". When you assertain the reason for this you will be well on your way to understanding the origins of the Jesus is God notion.

Happy Hunting,

Mateo

 

[Ecumenicist]

Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
requested by others as well.

take care,

Dave

 

[Mateo]

"Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
requested by others as well.

take care,

Dave"



Well, gee..... that was edifying.

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Mateo
Judged at the cross... interesting notion, That would make the "white throne judgment" more like the "white throne sentencing".

You are correct. All that show up at the White Throne Judgment are wicked.

There is no place in the Bible that speaks of a final judgment, where souls are lined up, some gaining access to Heaven, while others condemned to Hell.

The righteous are judged at the Bema Seat of Christ. Bema means mercy.

Regards

 

[Mateo]

Psssst...Hey Quasar... your fly is open.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Mateo
"Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
requested by others as well.

take care,

Dave"



Well, gee..... that was edifying.

Hi Mateo,

You're right, I should have responded to you directly, my apologies.

Regarding my thinking of Jesus Christ as Immanent God, those
thoughts are in the other thread. But regarding your statements,
I believe that 7th Day Adventists talk about the
usurping of Christianity by Pagan culture, others do as well,
so you're not alone in your assessment.

However, regarding Christ as God. Not something that's
easily justified through Scripture, except perhaps through
the Gospel of John, and again there as Immanent God, still
distinct in some ways from the Father.

That's another argument I choose not to engage in because
I have no proof, only a witness. Christ as Immanent God was
a revelation and a leap of faith for me, not an intellectual
conclusion. It was after I made that leap that other things
started making sense.

Take Care,

Dave

 

[Mateo]

Gotcha Mr. Dave,

Later

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Mateo
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.

This verse still does not say that the dead will be resurrected at the same time, which is what my point was. Otherwise, I agree with you.

 

[Mateo]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mateo
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This verse still does not say that the dead will be resurrected at the same time, which is what my point was. Otherwise, I agree with you.


Okey dokey,

The word says after one or two admonitions let 'em go.

Number 2:

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

Oh yea, by the way, If you'll read Rev 20 reeeeeeeal close you'll see that if you didn't die (as in be murdered) for the word of God or go through the great trib you will not be a part of the first resurrection and you will appear before the judgment seat of Christ ,whether ya done good or bad. Dig?

Done my best. Hope ya got ears.

Love

Mateo

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Mateo
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

Mateo

But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

Best regards.

 

[Mateo]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mateo
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

Mateo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

Best regards.


Okay God,

You said in the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established so if it's okay with you I'll try one more time, If It's okay with you just don't say anything.

God:............


Mateo: Cool.


Otay Mr. Quasar:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Again, one judgement of both the good and the bad. What makes you reject this notion my friend?

Love,

Mateo

 

[Quasar1011]

Mateo, where do you say the final judgment takes place: on Earth, or in the heavenly realm?

 

[Mateo]

Quasar asked:

Mateo, where do you say the final judgment takes place: on Earth, or in the heavenly realm?


Mateo says:

I was about to reply to this reflexively but something made me grab the Bible and double check. Glad I did...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


If I understand what I am reading here correctly, the answer to your question is... neither.


I love it when I learn. That's why I'm here. Thanks Quasar.

Mateo

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Mateo
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mateo
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

Mateo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

Best regards.


Okay God,

You said in the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established so if it's okay with you I'll try one more time, If It's okay with you just don't say anything.

God:............


Mateo: Cool.


Otay Mr. Quasar:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Again, one judgement of both the good and the bad. What makes you reject this notion my friend?

Love,

Mateo

Given the importance of two or three witnesses, I'll back you
on this Mateo. This Scripture is truth.

Dave

 

[Mateo]

"Given the importance of two or three witnesses, I'll back you
on this Mateo. This Scripture is truth.

Dave"


Dave,

My little portion of the spirit of truth salutes your little portion

Love,

Mateo

 

[OMEGA]

MATEO

MATEO

(Gal 3:24 KJV) "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

(Gal 3:25 KJV) "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

We learned the Foundation of the knowledge of God and

His Requirements of Man from the Old Testament and

build our Faith on Christ from that knowledge.

Without the knowledge and references of the Old Testament,

we would find it hard to Believe who JESUS really was .



:thumb:

 

[Mateo]

Yeah Buddy!

 

[aikido7]

Re: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

Re: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

The following is the first half or so of Pslam 22, written approximately 1000 years before Christ was born. Also, it should be noted that the first historical record of crucifixion is from the 6th century B.C., so it is likely that this psalm was written hundreds of years before anyone was ever crucified.

Studying this Psalm was one of the final steps that convinced me that the Bible is true, and that Jesus is who He says He is. I can think of no other rational conclusion, given the content of this psalm. To anyone who is unsure whether the Bible truly is the Word of God or simply a collection of books written by men, please take a few minutes to read this study of Psalm 22.




(Psalm 22:
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

_________________________________

Mark was the first gospel written. Lining up Mark side-by-side with Matthew and Luke, one can clearly see how Matthew and Luke copied Mark's account and changed it to suit their own purposes when they needed to.

Mark knew Jesus was crucified and used the Old Testament verse to show the agony Jesus must have gone through. After all, during the time Mark was written, the temple had been destroyed and Jews were being killed by the Romans in the war. Mark's community no doubt felt that God had indeed "forsaken" them. It would make perfect sense to write about a Jesus who was suffering along with Mark's community.

Rather than prophecy turning into history, this was history turned into prophecy by the gospel writers.

Mark's Jesus dies forsaken. John's Jesus dies in total control. An entire Roman legion falls down at his feet. Instead of wanting to avoid the bitter cup, John's Jesus asks for it. At the moment of death he declares "It is finished." Clearly, John's Jesus is in total control and things are being fulfilled right on schedule.

Notice that there is nothing in the gospels that hints at Jesus crying in the daytime and no one hearing and being less than silent in the nightime. Jesus, nor anyone else, compares himself to "a worm" in the New Testament. And clearly, "ALL" those who saw him DID NOT ridicule him. There are no "bulls of Bashan," counted bones out of joint, wax hearts, lions' mouths or oxens' horns.

All those motifs are relevant to the author of the Psalm. The gospel writers often "poured over scripture" to find commonalities they could apply to or transfer into to present events to give them cultural and theological weight.

This was a common practice and has nothing to do with factuality and history and has everything to do with mythology and theological truth. The gambling for the garmets and the other small details were added into the story of the crucifixion. The idea was not to tell lies but to point to spiritual truths.

We don't believe in the power of Christ because of prophecies, do we? We believe because Jesus, for us, shows us a glimpse of God Himself.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I for one believe that Jesus literally said those words on the
Cross. I don't think this illustrates the prophesy of the Psalm so
much as how in touch with the Psalms Jesus was, which He oft
quoted. Like many people, Jesus let Scripture do His talking
for Him when appropriate.

This quote from Jesus is a stumbling block for many in understanding
Christ as God in the flesh, after all, why would Jesus call out His
utter sense of forsakenness if He was in fact God?

I think I said it before, I see this as an expression of His solidarity
with the suffering of humanity. Its also a demonstration of how
we as people can find the strength to deal with the lowest times of
our lives, by openly and honestly sharing our feelings with God, and
by remembering the great things God hath done both in Scripture
and in our lives. This helps us to hold onto the faith we need to
make it through the worst, lonliest, most painful experiences of our
lives.

Dave

 

[Mateo]

Sounds like one or two folk have embraced theologies that preclude the plain implications contained in the 22nd Psalm. May I suggest that instead of twisting the meaning of Psa 22 to conform to your theology, you instead adjust your theology to conform to what Psa 22 says.

Love,

Mateo