ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

[Mateo]

LightSon,

I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. This notion gained some currency in several of the patented answer factories (seminaries, cemetaries, whatever) by those who either could not or would not make the connection between what Jesus uttered on the cross and the first line of Psalm 22. Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.

Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Mateo
I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. ..... Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.

Thanks for your response Mateo.
But you all too carefully skirted my question.

Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Did God forsake Jesus in any way?
If you say "no", then you must be also saying that Jesus was wrong or had a false perception. Certainly Jesus was trying to communicate more than just a "link" to Psalm 22.

Originally posted by Mateo
Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Fair enough. You've quoted some scripture to support your contention. How about this verse?

Habakkuk 1:13
"Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity..."

There are very good theological reasons, why Jesus needed to experience "separation" from the Father and the Spirit (hence "my God, my God"). Jesus was experiencing spiritual death, on our behalf, and due to our sin being placed upon Him.
Praise His Holy name.

Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, "

If you are quibbling about the notion of God "turning His back" on Christ, then fine. Will you agree that God "smote" Christ because Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the tree?

 

[Mateo]

Beloved LightSon,

I would not presume to disagree that God's Son was indeed bruised for our transgressions. This was not my assertion. The issue was, and I quote:

"Did God forsake Jesus while He was on the cross?".

I answered this as straightforward as I could, to whit:

"I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross."

To which you replied:

"Thanks for your response Mateo.
But you all too carefully skirted my question."

I'm sorry my friend but I can't make it any plainer than that.

You offered a partial scripture as an justifcation for what would appear to be your allegance to the notion that God turned His back on His Son on the cross due to an inability to behold sin. In quoting the word of God you used an elipsis to avoid quoting the entire verse to which you referred. It has been my experience that when this is done in justification of a doctrine that those who use this practice generally wish to call attention away from the rest of what is said in the verse so quoted. Let's have a look, shall we?:

Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Ooooops! The guy that is not supposed to be looking at this sort of thing is being asked why he does. Context is everything, don't you agree?

In the love of the Lord,

Mateo

 

[FireBall]

Mateo

Do you belive that God will turn his back on sinners on Judgement day??

If you do and you belive that Jesus bore your judgement on the cross then it seems quite logical that GOd turned his back on Jesus instead of you.

Also why else would Jesus say it unless it was true.

"I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20

 

[Mateo]

Fireball asked:

"Do you belive that God will turn his back on sinners on Judgement day??"

Mateo wonders:

Which judgement are you referring to?

 

[FireBall]

The great throne judgement not the judgement for rewards.

 

[Mateo]

Not sure I've heard about a "rewards" judgement. Sounds like you are referring to the "white throne" judgement of Revelation 20. Those that are judged then are judged on their deeds (the books) and their affiliation with Jesus (the Lambs book of life) if I understand what I have read correctly.

As to your original question, being a sinner myself, if I am to participate in this judgement it is my sincere hope that God will not turn His back on me at this time nor do I think His word indicates that He will.

 

[FireBall]

I agree entirely. No God wont turn his back on you at the white throne judgement as he will everyone who hasn't belived in Jesus because he has already turn his back on you, and this is why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" because he was bearing your judgement.

 

[Mateo]

I'm sorry I'm not following your logic well enough to be able to embrace it. I think you are confusing atonement for our sins with judgement, two different things in my mind. This thread is starting to get interesting. A pity I must leave to attend to my days labor. More later perhaps?

 

[FireBall]

Well atonement for our sins is so that we are not judged.

If there was no atonement there would be no redemption.

We are saved by grace through faith.

We are not all automatically saved. We are all sinners and will be judged accordingly but we can escape judgmeny by grace (the finished work of Christ) through faith.

 

[Mateo]

Okay, lunchtime. Sandwich in one hand and keyboard in the other...

Saved by grace through faith... yep that's the deal at this present time; our faith being accounted to us as righteousness, but I suggest that this does not exempt us from judgment. Many claim the name of Christ who shall be judged and found wanting. No? If this be the case then it would appear that we who seek this gift of life eternal are responsible to manifest our faith through this gift of God that is our mortal life. Remember the unprofitable servant Jesus spoke of?

 

[FireBall]

Absolutely I agree no change of nature no salvation.

But it is not our works that saves us they are just the produce of our salvation. If we are born again we have already been judged at the cross so we will not be condemned. "There is therefore no condemnation...". We will still be judged according to we have done rewards ect but not as to our eternal destiny.

 

[Mateo]

"Absolutely I agree no change of nature no salvation.

But it is not our works that saves us they are just the produce of our salvation. If we are born again we have already been judged at the cross so we will not be condemned. "There is therefore no condemnation...". We will still be judged according to we have done rewards ect but not as to our eternal destiny."

Judged at the cross... interesting notion, That would make the "white throne judgment" more like the "white throne sentencing".

"If we are born again..." I would suggest to you it should be WHEN we are born again. So the question is when are we born again? The answer...when we are born again or ressurected as it were; some at Christ's return some a 1000 years later if I am understanding aright what I am reading. (1Cor 5:1-5, Rom 8:22-25, 2Tim 4: 6-8 and Heb 3:6 are a good start towards understanding the timing of our salvation I think) remember flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

Rewards... this is the second time you have mentioned this. Please explain about "rewards". Some scripture would be nice as well.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Mateo
LightSon,

I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. This notion gained some currency in several of the patented answer factories (seminaries, cemetaries, whatever) by those who either could not or would not make the connection between what Jesus uttered on the cross and the first line of Psalm 22. Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.

Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

My $.02

Jesus / God / was expressing His absolute solidarity with
humanity, and the suffering that humanity endures.

Hence the crede, "wholly human and wholly divine."

God does not turn His back on us, but nonetheless sometimes
we feel very alone. Jesus endures our pain, even our
aloneness, with us, and in His demonstrating that, we are
assured that we are not alone.

Dave Miller

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Dave Miller
My $.02

Jesus / God / was expressing His absolute solidarity with
humanity, and the suffering that humanity endures.

Hence the crede, "wholly human and wholly divine."

God does not turn His back on us, but nonetheless sometimes
we feel very alone. Jesus endures our pain, even our
aloneness, with us, and in His demonstrating that, we are
assured that we are not alone.

Dave Miller

Dave,
Considering Jesus rhetorical question, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Did God the Father forsake Jesus?

Or was Jesus just feeling forsaken?

This issue seems to be shouded in semantics. The notion of God "turning His back," seems to be in contention. I take this particular phrase as a metaphor for "forsaking sin" and since Jesus bore our sins, God needed to forsake the sin bearer as a part of the process.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by LightSon
Dave,
Considering Jesus rhetorical question, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Did God the Father forsake Jesus?

Or was Jesus just feeling forsaken?

This issue seems to be shouded in semantics. The notion of God "turning His back," seems to be in contention. I take this particular phrase as a metaphor for "forsaking sin" and since Jesus bore our sins, God needed to forsake the sin bearer as a part of the process.

Hi Lightson.

I understand that take on it. Taking our two viewpoints, the
question is, was God/Jesus forsaking sin, or was Jesus/God
taking the part of those who are forsaken?

Its an extension of the classic debate, was Jesus fully human
or fully divine?

From your viewpoint, it was necessary for God to forsake sin, as God and sin are incompatible. From my viewpoint, it was
necessary for Jesus to take on the role of sin, both as a
sacrifice on behalf of humanity, but also as an expression of
love for and solidarity with humanity.

Its really quite amazing to ponder. On a deep, deep human
level, saying "I know what you're going through," doesn't
give much comfort, but saying "I too have suffered as you do,"
or " I am suffering with
means all the difference in the world. The bond of suffering is
unique in the human experience. Being a trach patient, when
I encounter another trach patient, or someone who has
had a tracheostomy, there is a deep deep bond there
that no one else can share. The bond of suffering.

Saying that Jesus took on sin has some meaning at some level,
but saying that Jesus became wholly, wholly human, suffering
and all, adds a whole other dimension to God in the Flesh.

Take care,

Dave

 

[Mateo]

Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Mateo
Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?

Mateo,
Is Jesus God?

I thought you were trinitarian. Am I mistaken about that?

 

[Mateo]

"Mateo,
Is Jesus God?"


No, He is the Son of God.


"I thought you were trinitarian. Am I mistaken about that?"


Yes. I reject any and every "ian", "ism" and "ist" created by and known to man.

BTW. My statement of faith is the Bible.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Mateo
Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?

Emmanuel, God with us.

God in the flesh. Immanent God.

Go ahead and be contentious, you refine my thoughts,
I refine yours, challenge helps us grow in understanding.

Dave