ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

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godrulz

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themuzicman said:
Apparently God doesn't declare everything that will happen, but only those things He will bring about.

Muz
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He does not bring about evil, so did not declare what Hitler would do. He does not declare every minute of billions of lives because we, not God, bring about our futures (with God's providential care vs coercion).

God does not always get His way. Not everything is God's will (monothetism/determinism is a fatal flaw with Calvinism).
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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godrulz said:
(Rom. 8 STP argues that we are already glorified, but it is a grammatical issue to indicate certainty, not actual completion in reality in the past).
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(Philippians 3:20 NIV) But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

See HERE
 
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godrulz

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tetelestai said:
(Philippians 3:20 NIV) But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

See HERE
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Lightner: "The people of Philippi were living there as colonists while their citizenship was in Rome. Similarily, Christians, while living on earth, have their citizenship elsewhere-in heaven. This contrasts with those in v. 19 whose minds are exclusively on earthly things."

What is your point? Surely you are not saying we are actually in heaven while on earth (omnipresent?)?! Believers long for heaven and His return, but they are not there yet in reality until we die (absent from body/present with Lord) or are raptured (I Thess. 4).

This is not the same thing as our yet future glorication which involves bodily resurrection. It is certain for the believer, but not actual until the rapture/resurrection (I Cor. 15).
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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themuzicman said:
Apparently God doesn't declare everything that will happen, but only those things He will bring about.
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Did God force the Jews to reject Jesus as their savior, and kill Him?

In the OT we see the animal sacrifices as a shadow of what was to come, and prophecy of what was to come.

How did God know hundreds of years before any of the Jews that rejected and killed Jesus, were even born, would do such a thing?

Did God bring to pass the crucifixion? If so, how could God do this and not violate anyone’s libertarian free will?

The answer is that God is outside of time. Therefore God can see the past, present, and future all at once. Therefore God was able to know that the Jews would reject and kill Jesus. This is the only way these events could happen without God violating anyone’s free will.
 
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godrulz

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Arggg. You underestimate God's ability, the predictability of things, the lack of details to prove your case, etc.

That's it. I have sent my team to kidnap you, take away sleep and food, and indoctrinate you into OVT. Other methods have failed, so it is time for brainwashing.

You will thank us for this someday (tell your family to not worry; we will bring you back; this is not an alien abduction). Being the nice guy I am, I waited until after Christmas to go postal.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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godrulz said:
I do not see the Bible predicting the winner of any given Superbowl.
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(Rev 23:1) And the men who sharpen iron will overcometh the Goliath’s in forty days and three nights.

Does't this tell you the Steelers will beat the Giants in Super Bowl XLIII?
 
elected4ever

elected4ever

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godrulz said:
Determinism makes God responsible for evil and us mere machines. It can be rejected as unbiblical.
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True determinism can be rejected as unbiblicle but should not be. Salvation through Christ was determined by God so according to you would be unbiblical. How dare God determine that we should be saved through His Son. For God to determine something is not unbiblical.

godrulz said:
We choose, God does not choose for us. This is why there is a hell and we are responsible.
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We chose alright but God provides the choice through His determined will.

godrulz said:
God is in charge/control, but He macro vs micromanages. He brings His project to pass despite pockets of rebellion, man grieving and quenching the Spirit, man resisting God's will for them (Lk. 7:30, etc.).
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Man has no effect on God's determined will. Our kicking and screaming does not change anything.

godrulz said:
God does not decree in eternity past what I will do every minute. If so, God is responsible for the rape and murder of kids.
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No He does not but the fact that we are the sons of Adam determined our standing before God. Not our individual choice.

godrulz said:
Please don't be a hyper-Calvinist just because you reject OVT.
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I don't reject OVT, just your brand of it. I am not a hyper Calvinist ether.

godrulz said:
Why are you even concerned about this? Your bigger problem is that you are not even a true Christian if you still deny the Deity of Christ, God Almighty in the flesh, not a creature.
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I am not the denier of truth. You are. You are the one that said you can overrule God's promise proving yourself to be stronger than God. You are the one that trust in your own abilities and not God's word. How sad.:cry:
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

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tetelestai said:
Did God force the Jews to reject Jesus as their savior, and kill Him?
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Nope.

In the OT we see the animal sacrifices as a shadow of what was to come, and prophecy of what was to come.
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Yup.

How did God know hundreds of years before any of the Jews that rejected and killed Jesus, were even born, would do such a thing?
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Group dynamics.

Did God bring to pass the crucifixion? If so, how could God do this and not violate anyone’s libertarian free will?
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Where is a crucifixion specifically prophesied?

The answer is that God is outside of time. Therefore God can see the past, present, and future all at once. Therefore God was able to know that the Jews would reject and kill Jesus. This is the only way these events could happen without God violating anyone’s free will.
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Well, if you're willing to throw away the doctrine of justification and God's righteous nature, that's fine. Otherwise, we might need to find another way.

Muz
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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themuzicman said:
Where is a crucifixion specifically prophesied?
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Suffering and death by the Messiah at the hands of those who reject Him is prophesied. The means, however, is not.
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Psalms 22
18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Matthew 27
35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Was this God making sure everything came to pass?

Were these men who parted His garments and cast lots coerced to do so?

How does the open theist explain these two verses written hundreds of years appart?
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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themuzicman said:
Why not? We humans are pretty good at predicting what groups of people will do.
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Says who?

Why was World War 1 originally called the "War to end all wars"?

Back then "we humans" predicted there would be no more wars.

Funny how they had to rename it WW1
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Psalms 22
18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Matthew 27
35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Was this God making sure everything came to pass?

Were these men who parted His garments and cast lots coerced to do so?

How does the open theist explain these two verses written hundreds of years appart?
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Let's look at the rest of Psalm 22... or at least other potentially relevant parts:

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;​

From what we know of crucifixion, not all the joints are pulled out of place. Some are, but not all. It is certainly not reported that this happened.

17I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me;​

Again, from what we know, crucifixion (especially one done with the speed from arrest to death as Jesus'), it doesn't cause massive muscle and fat tissue loss, so it is unlikely that one could count all of Christ's bones, in the sense that he was emaciated. It is certainly not reported.

So, I think you're trying to be a bit too literal in taking Psalm 22 as direct prophecy, rather than a Messianic Psalm.

Muz
 
Bright Raven

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godrulz said:
What does the Hebrew say and mean? Other versions? It does not say EDF or that all things are declared before they happen. God does not declare what I will eat or drink or wear for every day of my life. God declares many new things and they come into being. God does cause and direct many things in relation to Israel, the context. It does not mean He is omnicausal or has EDF. He does not declare every possible new thing that comes into being from trillions of years ago. This would be prooftexting and eisegesis. This one verse does not specify the specific things, parameters, limitations, etc. To extrapolate some to all or assume they are not things God has His hand in goes beyond the text or an argument from silence. I see no basis from the text that God knows and sees the outcome of every lottery, chess game, sports event from eternity past, exhaustively. I do see that God does declare and bring things to pass by His ability (Is. 46 and 48) and that it refers to specific things, not pancausality or EDF.

This one verse cannot prove or disprove either view. In light of the other OVT verses, logic, godly philosophy, I am unpersuaded that you have made a fool of OVT.
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godrulz, How can you claim that God is fully omniscient and then say He does not know the outcome of all things. That is a totally contradictory statement. God does know all things; past, present and future. He in His triune nature knows all things, All things. Where can you hide from Him? What is the extent of his power? Who am I or you to question the perfection of His nature?
 
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themuzicman

themuzicman

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Bright Raven said:
godrulz, How can you claim that God is fully omniscient and then say He does not know the outcome of all things. That is a totally contradictory statement. God does know all things; past, present and future. He in His triune nature knows all things, All things. Where can you hide from Him? What is the extent of his power? Who am I or you to question the perfection of His nature?
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The question isn't whether God knows all things, but what "all things" includes. If we can say that God doesn't know what a square triangle looks like, because it's not logically knowable, then it is possible we could say that the future fits into that same category of "not logically knowable."

And, if we embrace free will, that's what happens to the future. EDF and free will are not logically compatible.

Thus, the "future" is a concept for which there is nothing to definitely know.

Muz
 
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