ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[DFT_Dave]

You conveniently failed to address what I said here:

So are you now arguing that God does not exist outside of "space"?​

BEFORE the creation of the universe, which includes space, He existed so common sense dictates that the eternal state is outside of "space."​

The word "space" is defined as being three dimensational and hence a part of the universe.

Now answer a question for me.

Since God existed before the creation of the universe and therefore before the creation of "space" then did He not exise apart from "space" at one time?

Just because God is not bound by time and space does not mean that He cannot interact in both time and space. You put God in a box and say that if He exists outside of time then he can have nothing to do with the very thing which He Himself created.

The truth of the matter is that He fills both heaven and earth:

"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" (Jer.31:33-34).​

Do you not know the difference between a "statement" and a "question"? The subject under discussion was not a "statement" but a "question":

"Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? " (Gen.3:8-9).​

Here is an example of a rhetorical QUESTION:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

A "rhetorical question" is a questioned designed to make a statement and not draw an answer. By the quiestion Paul was making a statement and that statement was that we receive the spirit by the hearing of faith and not by the works of the law. So tell me what statement was being made here in this so-called rhetorical question:

"Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? " (Gen.3:8-9).​

God inhabits the eternal state but He fills both heaven and earth so you are wrong again:

"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" (Jer.31:33-34).​

Neither heaven nor earth are timeless and spaceless. That's why God fill both heaven and earth. Jeremiah 23:24.

No where in scripture does it say that time and space were created.

But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” And he said, “I heard the sound of thee in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”​

Notice that Adam did not answer God's question. He did not say, "I'm over here, behind the bushes", or "I'm not telling", or "see if you can find me", because he knew that God knew where he was. That's why it's rhetorical.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Do you realize you just explained God's ability to transcend time?

No, I didn't, but go ahead and explain why you think so.

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Abraham was not offering his live son, he was offering his son's life.

You are back to your old tricks of refusing to answer questions. I will try again:

Just answer one question for me. Was Isaac dead when he was offered upon the altar?:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Neither heaven nor earth are timeless and spaceless. That's why God fill both heaven and earth. Jeremiah 23:24.

No where in scripture does it say that time and space were created.

What definition of "space" can you give to support your assertion?

Here is a definition which I found that supports my view:

"The expanse in which the solar system, stars, and galaxies exist; the universe."​

According to these definitions "space" is an integral part of the "universe" so therefore it is a part of the "creation."

Therefore, since God existed prior to the creation of the universe His existence then must have been apart from space. But at the same time He fills both earth and heaven:

"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" (Jer.31:33-34).​

The part in bold is a rhetorical questions and it searves the purpose of telling us that God fills both heaven and earth.

Notice that Adam did not answer God's question. He did not say, "I'm over here, behind the bushes", or "I'm not telling", or "see if you can find me", because he knew that God knew where he was. That's why it's rhetorical.

As I said, a rhetorical statement reveals something which the speaker wants to be known. You fail to tell us what that is.

I am beginning to think that it is you and not me who is clueless in regard to knowing what a "rhetorical question" is.

 

[DFT_Dave]

What definition of "space" can you give to support your assertion?

Here is a definition which I found that supports my view:

"The expanse in which the solar system, stars, and galaxies exist; the universe."​

According to these definitions "space" is an integral part of the "universe" so therefore it is a part of the "creation."

Therefore, since God existed prior to the creation of the universe His existence then must have been apart from space. But at the same time He fills both earth and heaven:

"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" (Jer.31:33-34).​

The part in bold is a rhetorical questions and it searves the purpose of telling us that God fills both heaven and earth.

As I said, a rhetorical statement reveals something which the speaker wants to be known. You fail to tell us what that is.

I am beginning to think that it is you and not me who is clueless in regard to knowing what a "rhetorical question" is.

You know that saying "God existed before he created the world" is an aspect of time and is the OV position, right?

Space is the nothingness that separates things from other things or else everything would be in the same place. Space is no-thing or nothing, just as time, in itself, is no-thing or nothing. God created things in the nothingness we call space. If we say God created space but put the definition of space in stead of the word space we would be saying God created no-thing or nothing.

Definition of RHETORICAL: Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical

b: employed for rhetorical effect; especially: asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>

Examples of RHETORICAL: My question was rhetorical. I wasn't really expecting an answer.​

Not only do you add to the Word of God what it does not say, you foolishly add to the meaning of common words that are not there.

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You know that saying "God existed before he created the world" is an aspect of time and is the OV position, right?

I was spreaking of man's perspective and not God's persopective.

Space is the nothingness that separates things from other things or else everything would be in the same place.

You failed to give a definition that demonstrates that "space" is not an integral part of the universe.

Space is no-thing or nothing, just as time, in itself, is no-thing or nothing.

WRONG!

Space is defined as being a thing which is three dimensational.

You seem to think that the eternal state is the same state as the universe, a three dimensational existence. However, the eternal state is an existence that is totally different from the created universe and is often described as being "invisible":

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible" (Col.1:15-16).​

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:17).​

Here Paul speaks of eternal things being invisible, and he says in no uncertain terms that the body which the Christian will be clothed upon is eternal:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.4:18; 5:1).​

That is why the body which the Chjristian will put on at the catching up of the saints is described as a "spiritual" body:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:50).​

You need to learn to distinguish between the created state and the eternal state.

Not only do you add to the Word of God what it does not say, you foolishly add to the meaning of common words that are not there.

I gave examples from the Bible where we can see that a rhetorical questions reveals a truth. You continue to come up empty when I asked you what truth the Lord was revealing in His rhetorical question to Adam.

If you have no answer then just say so but don't try to say that I do not know what a rhetorical question is.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are back to your old tricks of refusing to answer questions. I will try again:

Just answer one question for me. Was Isaac dead when he was offered upon the altar?:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).​

If you want to play stupid, go ahead, but you know that it was the attempted sacrifice of Isaac that proved that Abraham feared God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you want to play stupid, go ahead, but you know that it was the attempted sacrifice of Isaac that proved that Abraham feared God.

That is your "opinion" but an "attempted" sacrifice is not the same thing as the "offering" of Isaac upon the altar.

Now perhaps you will address what I said on my other "Open Theology" thread since there hasn't been even one Open Thesist that has dared to tackle what I said. Let us look at the following verse and see if what is said can be taken literally:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them" (Gen.6:5-7).​

If we are to take what is said here literally then we must believe that at one point in time God actually considered destroying mankind. However, earlier God had said:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen.3:15).​

If God really considered destroying mankind then it would be impossible that the Son of Man would ever fulfill that promise and therefore it would make God a liar.

Are you of the opinion that what is said at Genesis 6:5-7 must be taken literally

 

[genuineoriginal]

Are you of the opinion that what is said at Genesis 6:5-7 must be taken literally

Yep!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yep!

So do you think that God said the following and then later thought that He might destroy mankind and thus make it impossible that it could ever be fulfilled:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen.3:15).​

If there was a possibility that that might never have taken place then how would it be possible for Abel to be saved despite the fact that he was righteous in God's eyes?:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb.11:4).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So do you think that God said the following and then later thought that He might destroy mankind and thus make it impossible that it could ever be fulfilled:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen.3:15).​

Yep!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yep!

So what God said here cannot be taken "literally"?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).​

If there was a possibility that Genesis 3:15 might never had been fulfilled then how would it be possible for Abel to be saved despite the fact that he was righteous in God's eyes?:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb.11:4).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So what God said here cannot be taken "literally"?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).​

No, it can and must be taken "literally" in context as referring to the word He spoke concerning the children of Israel.

Exodus 6:6-8 6Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.​

Numbers 23:19,22-23 19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? 22God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. 23Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! ​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, it can and must be taken "literally" in context as referring to the word He spoke concerning the children of Israel.

So it is to be taken literally when it is said in regard to the chidren of Israel but in other cases He will say something and then not do it? And in regard to Israel He will not lie but in other instances He might?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).​

If there was a possibility that Genesis 3:15 might never had been fulfilled then how would it be possible for Abel to be saved despite the fact that he was righteous in God's eyes?:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb.11:4).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So it is to be taken literally when it is said in regard to the chidren of Israel but in other cases He will say something and then not do it? And in regard to Israel He will not lie but in other instances He might?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).​

You seem to forget the circumstances around God's determination to keep His word in this instance.

Exodus 32:7-14 7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You seem to forget the circumstances around God's determination to keep His word in this instance.

So in other instances he is not determined to keep His word? If He will not always keep His word then we have no assurance of salvation. his "promise" here cannot be relied on if you are right:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).​

Again, you failed to answer my question. In regard to what is said at Numbers 23:19 God will not lie but in other instances He might?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).

Now look at what God said prior to the verses which you say demonstrates that God really considered destroying man off the face of the earth:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen.3:15).​

If there was a possibility that Genesis 3:15 might never had been fulfilled then how would it be possible for Abel to be saved despite the fact that he was righteous in God's eyes?:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb.11:4).​

How would Abel's sins ever be remitted by the death of the Lord Jesus if mankind was wiped off the face of the earth? If that happened then how could the Lord Jesus have been born of a woman and die on the Cross for the sins of men like Abel?:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Ro.3:24-25).​

 

[DFT_Dave]

I was spreaking of man's perspective and not God's perspective.

You failed to give a definition that demonstrates that "space" is not an integral part of the universe.

WRONG!

Space is defined as being a thing which is three dimensational.

You seem to think that the eternal state is the same state as the universe, a three dimensational existence. However, the eternal state is an existence that is totally different from the created universe and is often described as being "invisible":

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible" (Col.1:15-16).​

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:17).​

Here Paul speaks of eternal things being invisible, and he says in no uncertain terms that the body which the Christian will be clothed upon is eternal:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.4:18; 5:1).​

That is why the body which the Chjristian will put on at the catching up of the saints is described as a "spiritual" body:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:50).​

You need to learn to distinguish between the created state and the eternal state.

I gave examples from the Bible where we can see that a rhetorical questions reveals a truth. You continue to come up empty when I asked you what truth the Lord was revealing in His rhetorical question to Adam.

If you have no answer then just say so but don't try to say that I do not know what a rhetorical question is.

The things in space have dimension, not space.

That God existed before he created the world is absolutely true if you believe that the creation has a beginning.

Websters dictionary does not agree with you that "a rhetorical question reveals a truth". It says, "asked merely for effect with no answer expected". I like your example, it was a good one, but "any" question that is asked in which one "wasn't really expecting an answer" is rhetorical.

I didn't say there were no distinctions between heaven and earth, I just said that they were both in time and space.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The things in space have dimension, not space.

You are wrong as we read the following definition for "space":

"the unlimited or incalculably great three-dimensional realm or expanse in which all material objects are located and all events occur."​

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/space

In the Bible the upper reaches of "space" are referred to as "heaven" and it is described as being created:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "heaven" is "all the spaces of heaven, however vast and infinite" (Gesenius's Lexicon).

Since the universe and its "space" are created it is certain that the word "eternity" here is not speaking of "space":

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So in other instances he is not determined to keep His word? If He will not always keep His word then we have no assurance of salvation. his "promise" here cannot be relied on if you are right:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).​

Again, you failed to answer my question. In regard to what is said at Numbers 23:19 God will not lie but in other instances He might?:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).[/INDENT]

Why do you want to deny God His sovereignty?

Jeremiah 18:7-10 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

God is consistent in His standards. Since the children of Israel were not doing evil in His sight at the time of Balaam, He was not going to go against His word.

Numbers 23:21 21He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.​

Balaam devised a plot to turn them away from God's blessing and into His wrath shortly afterwards.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.​

Until you get the basic principles down, the rest of your arguments are not addressable.

 

[Lon]

No, I didn't, but go ahead and explain why you think so.

--Dave

"...moments of time do not exist as something that God must pass through..."