ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Lon]

The Adam reference is rhetorical, but the Abe. one can be taken at face value (normative approach unless context or absurdity dictates otherwise) if we embrace a better view. Open Theism does not make all things literal, but does not fall into the trap of making things that can be taken at face value (e.g. God changing His mind) as figurative to retain a flawed preconception.

God's 'change-of-mind' is figurative :doh:

 

[Clete]

God's 'change-of-mind' is figurative :doh:

How so?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I have already been over this with you when you said:

Here is my reply and you said nothing that addressed what I said:

Are we supposed to believe that the following words in "bold" spoken to Adam by God are to be taken literally?:

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen.3:8-9).

Of course His words are not to be taken literally because He certainly knew Adam's location. But you would say that since His words there cannot be taken literally then they are meaningless random thoughts and cannot be understood by examining the context.

Since you can't tell the difference between Abraham and Adam, there is no way to have any conversation with you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

God's 'change-of-mind' is figurative :doh:

There is no possibility of it being figurative.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since you can't tell the difference between Abraham and Adam, there is no way to have any conversation with you.

What you quoted from me was strictly about "Adam" and had nothing to do with Abraham. I was showing you an example of "figurative" language but you evidently cannot recoginize such language so I suppose that you think that God did not know Adam's location.

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen.3:8-9).

Why will you not answer my question?:

"Are we supposed to believe that the words in 'bold' spoken to Adam by God are to be taken literally?"

 

[Lon]

There is no possibility of it being figurative.

Really? Do you "literally take out your brain and place a new one in?"
The phrase is figurative, nobody literally changes their mind. We have but one (well, unless you have Multiple Personality Disorder, then perhaps it applies somewhat literally if you have two or more minds in there) mind.

"Make up your(singular) minds?" See it doesn't work.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no possibility of it being figurative.

Of course you have already proven that you are incapable of spotting figurative language. The verses in narratives that show God changing His mind or repenting cannot be interpreted literally because according to God's essential nature He does not repent:

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Num.23:19).

 

[godrulz]

God's 'change-of-mind' is figurative :doh:

What does it mean figuratively? How would the Bible communicate that a personal being can and does change their mind other than the literal phrase? How would you clearly convey that a personal being cannot change their mind literally?

This must be taken at face value, but it leads to support for Open Theism, not Calvinism.

 

[godrulz]

Of course you have already proven that you are incapable of spotting figurative language. The verses in narratives that show God changing His mind or repenting cannot be interpreted literally because according to God's essential nature He does not repent:

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Num.23:19).

God does not repent from sin. He does not change His mind in a fickle, capricious way like humans do (context). I Sam. 15 has a verse that says God changed His mind in one case (cf. Hezekiah), but will not (vs cannot) change it in another case (same context, two scenarios). Will not is not cannot.

Your view of immutability, personhood, providence is flawed.

http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-theism/responses-to-objections/how-do-you-respond-to-numbers-2319/

You have proof texted a preconceived error, not exegeted the passage.

 

[Lon]

What does it mean figuratively? How would the Bible communicate that a personal being can and does change their mind other than the literal phrase? How would you clearly convey that a personal being cannot change their mind literally?

This must be taken at face value, but it leads to support for Open Theism, not Calvinism.

No, we as humans do not change our minds either. You cannot make a decision that is against your already established mind. For instance, you can choose between two flavors but you will absolutely not change your mind for a flavor you detest.
This is what this illustrates: When I come to Napolean ice cream, I can choose either the vanilla or the strawberry but not chocolate because I won't eat it (there is no change of mind, I won't eat chocolate). Now, I make a bowl of vanilla for myself and take the last of it. My son, who for this illustration doesn't like strawberry or chocolate comes and asks for ice cream. I make a second choice but nothing has changed. I prefer vanilla over strawberry but prefer my son over my own vanilla choice. There is no change in me, because my pecking order of decisions is the same (constant). I like vanilla over strawberry but it is already in my mind to love my son over my choice of vanilla. I didn't "change my mind" for strawberry. It was already in my mind, that if something greater in my pecking order was presented, I'd change the action. My mind doesn't change, it is constant on the pecking order of things and is that which me use to make decisions. Changing our mind is not literal. Other factors come in and change our actions, not our minds. It is more correct to say for this scenario that "I changed my action." My mind is still the same as it was when I first scooped vanilla. That is why 'change of mind' is not a literal term. We don't do it (at least for this scenario).
We can learn about things we were doing wrong and literally change how we think about a particular thing, but God doesn't do anything wrong nor learns anything new. He already knows if the earth is round or flat and what He will do regarding our actions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God does not repent from sin. He does not change His mind in a fickle, capricious way like humans do (context).

The verse does not say anything about how He might or might not repent. Instead it says that HE DOES NOT REPENT.

I Sam. 15 has a verse that says God changed His mind in one case (cf. Hezekiah), but will not (vs cannot) change it in another case (same context, two scenarios). Will not is not cannot.

I can also quote this verse and say that God is everwhere:

"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there" (Ps.139:7-8).​

But then I can use your circular reasoning and say that He is not always everywhere because He could not locate Adam when he hid himself from God:

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen.3:8-9).

 

[godrulz]

The verse does not say anything about how He might or might not repent. Instead it says that HE DOES NOT REPENT.

I can also quote this verse and say that God is everwhere:

"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there" (Ps.139:7-8).​

But then I can use your circular reasoning and say that He is not always everywhere because He could not locate Adam when he hid himself from God:

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen.3:8-9).

Some verses say that God repents (not from sin). Other verses say that He does not repent. This does not mean that He cannot do so, but that in some cases He does, while in other cases He does not depending on the conditional issues/contingencies. He does not repent in a fickle way like humans, but does relent/change His mind if it is consistent with His righteousness and new contingencies.

I Sam. 15 says He does not and He does. There is no contradiction from an Open Theism view, but there is one in your view unless you make one figurative, without warrant from the context (your view is flawed).

http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-the...nt-god-changing-his-mind-an-anthropomorphism/

 

[Jerry Shugart]

. I Sam. 15 says He does not and He does. There is no contradiction from an Open Theism view, but there is one in your view unless you make one figurative, without warrant from the context (your view is flawed).

Verses in the Bible says that God is everywhere but if we use your reasoning then He is not always everywhere because He could not locate Adam when he hid himself from God:

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen.3:8-9).​

You just IGNORE this because you do not want to admit that there are verses which speak of God doing things that can only be understood in a figurative sense.

Or perhaps you really think that God did not know Adam's location.

Now let us look at the following verse:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen22:12).

A literal reading of the verse can only being understood as saying that God did not know that Abraham feared Him until He saw him take up the knife--"And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son...for NOW I know that thou fearest God."

But we see in this verse that Abraham had "faith" before he lifted the knife to slay Isaac, at the time when he offered him up on the altar:

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure" (Heb.11:17-19).

Do you think that Abraham could have been "in faith" but at the same time not fear or reverence God?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Really? Do you "literally take out your brain and place a new one in?"
The phrase is figurative, nobody literally changes their mind. We have but one (well, unless you have Multiple Personality Disorder, then perhaps it applies somewhat literally if you have two or more minds in there) mind.

"Make up your(singular) minds?" See it doesn't work.

Seems like you forgot that there is a difference between "mind" and "brain".

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, we as humans do not change our minds either. You cannot make a decision that is against your already established mind. For instance, you can choose between two flavors but you will absolutely not change your mind for a flavor you detest.
This is what this illustrates: When I come to Napolean ice cream, I can choose either the vanilla or the strawberry but not chocolate because I won't eat it (there is no change of mind, I won't eat chocolate). Now, I make a bowl of vanilla for myself and take the last of it. My son, who for this illustration doesn't like strawberry or chocolate comes and asks for ice cream. I make a second choice but nothing has changed. I prefer vanilla over strawberry but prefer my son over my own vanilla choice. There is no change in me, because my pecking order of decisions is the same (constant). I like vanilla over strawberry but it is already in my mind to love my son over my choice of vanilla. I didn't "change my mind" for strawberry. It was already in my mind, that if something greater in my pecking order was presented, I'd change the action. My mind doesn't change, it is constant on the pecking order of things and is that which me use to make decisions. Changing our mind is not literal. Other factors come in and change our actions, not our minds. It is more correct to say for this scenario that "I changed my action." My mind is still the same as it was when I first scooped vanilla. That is why 'change of mind' is not a literal term. We don't do it (at least for this scenario).
We can learn about things we were doing wrong and literally change how we think about a particular thing, but God doesn't do anything wrong nor learns anything new. He already knows if the earth is round or flat and what He will do regarding our actions.

Looks like your strawman is a bit flat.
I now like brussel sprouts, spinach, and liver.
I changed my mind about not liking them.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Now let us look at the following verse:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen22:12).

A literal reading of the verse can only being understood as saying that God did not know that Abraham feared Him until He saw him take up the knife--"And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son...for NOW I know that thou fearest God."

But we see in this verse that Abraham had "faith" before he lifted the knife to slay Isaac, at the time when he offered him up on the altar:

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure" (Heb.11:17-19).

Do you think that Abraham could have been "in faith" but at the same time not fear or reverence God?

I already went over this.
You are mistaken in thinking that "had faith" means some mystical "in faith."

Abraham was strong in faith and passed the trial of his faith.
It was after Abraham passed the trial of his faith and his faith was perfected by his works, that God said, "now I know."

James 2 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

Now stop being an idiot about this strawman argument.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I already went over this.
You are mistaken in thinking that "had faith" means some mystical "in faith."

Even though I have already given you a verse that speaks of believers being "in faith" you still will not believe. Here it is again and perhaps this time you will not just IGNORE it:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb.11:13).

They died IN FAITH. They were IN FAITH when they died. But that is above your meager understanding. To you the phrase "in faith" does not mean "have" or "had" faith but instead the phrase is just some mystical "in faith."

Abraham was strong in faith and passed the trial of his faith. It was after Abraham passed the trial of his faith and his faith was perfected by his works, that God said, "now I know."

You keep repeating that even though you have been shown that you are in error. God's knowing was in regard to knowing that Abraham feared or reverenced Him:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen22:12).

You have been told several times that the "knowing" refers to God knowing that Abraham feared or reverenced Him but for some reason you cannot grasp that simple truth.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).

 

[Lon]

Looks like your strawman is a bit flat.
I now like brussel sprouts, spinach, and liver.
I changed my mind about not liking them.

You changed your mind? Well, if we are going to disagree over the definition of "mind" I guess we are in for a long discussion. I already agreed we might have opinion changes based on a correction of facts (or body needs in your scenario). To me it would be about the same as saying you changed your brain for another one in order to like your sprouts, liver, and spinach. I would almost bet, you still hate whoever's it was that first made these for you. You probably had a change of cooks or recipe's, thus your mind didn't change, the flavors probably did.

Regardless, let's put the focus back on God (since that's who we are talking about): Is His mind going to change regarding sin? Is He always going to hate it? Use that one mind God gave you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Even though I have already given you a verse that speaks of believers being "in faith" you still will not believe. Here it is again and perhaps this time you will not just IGNORE it:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb.11:13).

They died IN FAITH. They were IN FAITH when they died. But that is above your meager understanding. To you the phrase "in faith" does not mean "have" or "had" faith but instead the phrase is just some mystical "in faith."

You keep repeating that even though you have been shown that you are in error. God's knowing was in regard to knowing that Abraham feared or reverenced Him:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen22:12).

You have been told several times that the "knowing" refers to God knowing that Abraham feared or reverenced Him but for some reason you cannot grasp that simple truth.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).

It is you that cannot grasp simple truth.
Your theology is preventing you from understanding the simple truths in the Bible.

Hebrews 11:17 says Abraham was tried. I say, "now I know" is in reference to Abraham passing the trial. You say he passed the trial because he was "in faith" before he was tried, and so have a big problem with the "now" in "now I know".

You claim "now I know" is only about Abraham fearing God and has nothing to do with Abraham being tried, then deny any explaination of the timing of "now I know". There is a big hole in your theory.

Question: Was Abraham tried?
Answer: Yes, it says so in the Bible.
Your answer: He wasn't tried, he was already "in faith".

Question: Did anything change when Abraham offered up Isaac?
Answer: Yes, God said, "now I know" because Abraham did not withold his son.
Your answer: No, nothing changed.

Question: Why was Abraham tried?
Answer: To test the limits of his willingness to obey God.
Your answer: He wasn't tried, he was already "in faith".

 

[genuineoriginal]

You changed your mind? Well, if we are going to disagree over the definition of "mind" I guess we are in for a long discussion. I already agreed we might have opinion changes based on a correction of facts (or body needs in your scenario). To me it would be about the same as saying you changed your brain for another one in order to like your sprouts, liver, and spinach. I would almost bet, you still hate whoever's it was that first made these for you. You probably had a change of cooks or recipe's, thus your mind didn't change, the flavors probably did.

Regardless, let's put the focus back on God (since that's who we are talking about): Is His mind going to change regarding sin? Is He always going to hate it? Use that one mind God gave you.

You built the strawman that brain is mind. Changing your mind has nothing to do with a brain transplant, it is an act of will.

You seem to think that people are only of one mind because people only have one brain.
The Bible disagrees with you.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.​

So, are you going to believe the Bible or your strawman?