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ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
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There's rational faith and there's irrational faith, mine is the former yours is the latter. I believe the resurrection will come because God has promised that it will come not because it already has happened. How could our resurrection have already happed in God but not yet on planet earth? We can't be there and here at the same time.
We both believe in the resurrection, we both believe in Christ as our savior and coming King who will judge the world and rule over it for the rest of eternity. The difference is, in OV, we believe that this has not yet happened, you believe it has.
--Dave
That is not so, I believe in it as though it has happened, it is that certaint. What makes my faith rational is that God has declared it. He IS the resurrection.
But I live NOW in the expectation of it therefore it is a present reality.
An expectation of something to come is not a present reality, it will be a future reality.
Your statement is incoherent but seems we believe the same.
--Dave
Yes we do...but I do see the ressurection as a present reality...that is what we fashion our walk with the Lord upon, it is our faith [gifted to us] which makes it a present reality.
Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for the reality of things as yet unseen.
We walk by faith not by sight.
And why are these things not seen? Maybe because they are not here yet, in the future--ya think?
--Dave
Lon
Well-known member
No, of course not. Why would you even bother to ask? Why is it that when I say He is relational to, but unconstrained by our finiteness, that you wouldn't see I accept both and continue to ask stuff I've repeatedly agreed to? I already said you can measure what is within our finite existence, including God's interactions. All I've said different is that God is more than His interaction with man and the universe. Let's agree with what we both agree on and not go looking for loopholes where there is none.
Yes, it is all stored in gray matter.
So when God communicates to us, He is doing so within our time frame, yep, agreed. Some of His ways and thoughts are graspable and even measurable as He interacts with us but, as I continually state, He is more than just that. To think that what He reveals is all there is to His being, is a mistake.
Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD."For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
Think just a little: How can Dave clean his fishtank without being entirely inside of it?
If Dave's hand is in the fish tank, I guess you could say he isn't 'completely' outside of it, but I didn't mean to make such a quivel over the mention of it, when I say "Dave is completely outside of the fishtank." Of course I agree that part of Dave is in the fishtank, and part of God is in our universe. I gave you verses prior describing God not being able to dwell in the temple Solomon built for Him. Part of Him does indeed exist with us but when Solomon says God can't dwell there, that is the gist of what I was saying, that God is immensely beyond our universe. It seems you might be assurdely nit-picky but I'm trying to address this as if it were a genuine concern so we can get back to pertinent issues. I'll state it again, God is both relational to and unconstrained by His creation. I did make that clear in the quoted post but you took liberty rather than pay attention to the context, much as I accuse the OV of doing with scriptures.
Lon
Well-known member
Uhhhggg, the first sentence and this paragraph are opposites.
This is why "it is commonly assumed [that OVers] don't believe in God's omniscience."
But they are in God, He see it and He tells us about it, we believe His word..it is [or ought to be] evidenced by our walk with Him. This walk of faith is what will be justified. He IS the resurrection, He IS the future.
If you can show me why don't you?
So God is more free than I am? That's what I thought.
How many times were prophets actually given visions of the future? And how many times were there prophetic warnings heeded, thus causing an outcome different than the one prophesied?
There is no way for Hilston to know this without employing the very thing this comment claims he is incapable of processing.
In effect, he just proclaimed his own worldview as irrational since, according to Jim, God is the only one capable of being rational in the first place. Jim is not God, therefore Jim is irrational by his own testimony.
The rest of his post isn't worthy of comment.
Resting in Him,
Clete
God can foretell that there will be a first and second coming of Christ. Is. 46 and 48 shows that God foretells certain vs all things because of His ABILITY to bring them to pass, not because they actually exist in advance to be seen in a mythical 4th dimension. It is incoherent to say that God sees me typing this millions of years before I existed.
You need to put on a thinking cap instead of clinging to tradition that is not truth.
Huh? Are you saying creation is co-eternal with God?! Are you saying Jesus was actually on the cross before He was born and is still on the cross?! Are you saying the Second Coming has already happened?
God's knowledge of the future is anticipatory, not actual. It is certain when He purposes to unilaterally bring it to pass (future judgments, Second Coming, etc.), but other aspects are open, uncertain (outcome of next year's Superbowl if He tarries).
Cmon. We agree with faith and future truth, but that is different than the potential future being identical to the present or fixed past. The Bible reveals chronology is God. You would have to make every page of Scripture figurative to retain a philosophical view that does not make sense and cannot be defended from Scripture.
I can say with certainty that I will to to work in a few hours. I have the ability to bring this to pass, barring contingencies such as my death, the rapture, etc. My foreknowledge of this does not mean I am actually at work before I get there or that this has to be so for me to make a truthful statement at the moment.
No one can stop the Second Coming of Christ, so He can predestine, foreknow, and bring it to pass. This does not mean the Second Coming happened co-terminus with creation, birth of Christ, resurrection, etc., but it still means it is certain because of ability/power, not crystal ball (read Is. 46 and 48 carefully and do not extrapolate it to EDF or omnicausality because the context won't allow it without proof texting/eisegesis).
Lon
Well-known member
1) There is a difference between prophecy and promise but the OV doesn't distinguish this and lumps them together because they deny prescience.
2) A promise/covenant can be conditional or unconditional, depending on how it is made. This is no different from our promises. "If you clean your room, we will go to the beach." What happens if they don't clean their room? The alternative implied implicitly in the promise: no beach.
"We are going out for ice cream." <-- no condition
3) Prophecy. God declares the future of Josiah 300 years before he is born and tells us exactly what will happen to ashera poles that haven't even appeared as yet. Ya know, in a sense, OV is in the same camp with double-pred Calvinists, because in the OV, God couldn't know the future, just purpose it. Therefore the OV's theology has God guilty of purposefully building ashera poles to a false god by extension or He'd not be so confident in His 'prediction.' Divine foreknowledge eliminates this problematic for the rest of us. He knows.
The Open view is common sense, biblical, simple. On another level, this debate involves great complexity, detailed proofs, etc.
A sigh is not refutation or positive response. It shows that you prefer simplistic views, even if indefensible, and that you fail to appreciate the issues involved. It is worth the effort, but it is an effort.
Ignorance is bliss may work for you, but not for some of us.