God elects corporately.Hilston said:Do you now see that God elects individuals, and not corporate entities only?
Except of course when God picks individual(s) for a task, i.e., Jonah, Joseph, The Apostles etc.
God elects corporately.Hilston said:Do you now see that God elects individuals, and not corporate entities only?
Hilston said:The origin of the English word 'responsible'
1. Oxford Dictionary's discussion on where the word (not the concept, just the word) comes from:ORIGIN late 16th cent.(in the sense [answering to, corresponding] ): from obsolete French, from Latin respons- ‘answered, offered in return,’ from the verb respondere (see respond ).
2. Further discussion of 'responsible':Responsible is an adjective that applies to anyone who is in charge of an endeavor or to whom a duty has been delegated, and who is subject to penalty or blame in case of defaultresponsible for getting everyone out of the building in the event of a fire).
The Oxford Thesaurus discussion of 'responsible':responsible adjective
- who is responsible for the prisons? in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable for.
- if an error's been made, I'm the one who's responsible accountable, answerable, to blame, guilty, culpable, blameworthy, at fault, in the wrong.
- a responsible job important, powerful, executive.
- he is responsible to the president answerable, accountable.
- a responsible tenant trustworthy, sensible, mature, reliable, dependable.
:think: Interesting. It only follows then that you would also argue that God is NOT responsible for our salvation? God is NOT responsible for picking His elect? When someone gives his life to the Lord (however you believe that happens) God is NOT responsible?Hilston said:God is not, will not and cannot be responsible for anything, to anyone, ever.
Do you believe that God has to perform a ongoing miracle just to maintain our soul spirit? Or do you believe that God designed us to have a soul spirit and it's ongoing existence is not a miracle?Hilston said:Yes, it matters. Because on your view, there are no miracles today and what you're describing is miraculous.
False dichotomy.What you say "doesn't matter" is the crux of the issue. For you to be consistent with your espoused theology, one of two things must be true: (a) He doesn't speak to you, or (b) He is in total meticulous and exhaustive control by way of His decrees.
Jim, I am just doing the best I can to converse with you. I am trying to answer the questions you ask. If I have misunderstood your question, I apologize.Seriously, Eric. Who are you talking to?
OK, but how does He do that?He changes our will, according to His decrees.Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Colossians said:I don't think what he is describing is miraculous at all! I believe it is a simple description of how God designed us to be able to "hear from" the Holy Spirit.
You have a consistency problem. Do you attend a fellowship?
That's not what the text says. He elected a subset of individuals, using the plural pronoun "they", in reference to the members of Israel who were true Israel (Ro 9:6). For you to deny individual election is to contradict the obvious statements in the text. Do you agree that Paul is referring to individuals being elected as a subset of national Israel?Knight said:God elects corporately.
Among the "tasks" for which God elects individuals is to live a saved life doing the good works He decreed for us to do (Eph 2:10).Knight said:Except of course when God picks individual(s) for a task, i.e., Jonah, Joseph, The Apostles etc.
This is correct, assuming you're using the word "responsible" biblically.*Knight said::think: Interesting. It only follows then that you would also argue that God is NOT responsible for our salvation?
God is NOT responsible for picking His elect?
When someone gives his life to the Lord (however you believe that happens) God is NOT responsible?
- God is NOT responsible for the salvation of His elect.
- God is NOT responsible for the good gifts that come from above.
No.Knight said:Do you believe that God has to perform a ongoing miracle just to maintain our soul spirit?
It's ongoing existence is sustained by supernatural means, but we do not perceive it miraculously. The Biblical definition of miracles involves what men perceive as out of the normal course of nature. God's sustaining power over the universe and every atom therein is in keeping with the normal course of nature as we perceive it.Knight said:Or do you believe that God designed us to have a soul spirit and it's ongoing existence is not a miracle?
Don't just assert, Eric. Give me the third option. Or fourth or whatever. If you hear His voice, it is miraculous, according to the Biblical definition. If you hear His voice, you need to write it down, because it should be added to the Bible (which, of course, would be unbiblical). If you don't hear His voice, or some other form of communication directly from God, then you have superstition, which is also unbiblical.Knight said:False dichotomy.
My argument (from your view) is stated immediately above. You assert that it's a false dichotomy. I would like to see your modification or addendum to the argument.Knight said:It seemed to me you have been trying to argue that (from my view) for God to answer prayer He would be controlling our will.
By decreeing those changes in advance. When I get hungry, I know it is decreed. When I choose Cap'n Crunch over Old Fashioned Rolled Oats, I know it is decreed. When I feel guilty for not eating the oats. I know it is decreed. When I decide next time to eat the right thing, I know it is decreed. My mind has changed, all according to God's decree. We are all following the Script. That's what "As it is written" means.Knight said:OK, but how does He do that?
The changes occur according to His foreordained plans. It may involve chemical reactions in my brain that change my will, it may involve a manipulation of my circumstances that change my choices, but none of this is done on the fly. It is all according to plan.Knight said:How do you believe that God "changes our will, according to His decrees"?
:up:Hilston said:
I have explained my view on this two times already, I don't think I should have to repeat it again.Hilston said:Don't just assert, Eric. Give me the third option.
Interesting.Hilston wrote: He changes our will, according to His decrees.Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;By decreeing those changes in advance. When I get hungry, I know it is decreed. When I choose Cap'n Crunch over Old Fashioned Rolled Oats, I know it is decreed. When I feel guilty for not eating the oats. I know it is decreed. When I decide next time to eat the right thing, I know it is decreed. My mind has changed, all according to God's decree. We are all following the Script. That's what "As it is written" means.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The changes occur according to His foreordained plans. It may involve chemical reactions in my brain that change my will, it may involve a manipulation of my circumstances that change my choices, but none of this is done on the fly. It is all according to plan.
Wow... Jim, so concerned! :shocked:Hilston said:This is correct, assuming you're using the word "responsible" biblically.*
*Please note: Eric, if you are even the slightest bit tempted to do something so "journalistic" and libelous as selectively quoting me in the above response, please, please, please reconsider. You and I agreed to be more cordial and friendly toward one another, but you've done this in the past. I trust you would not stoop to such behavior now.
Sincerely,
Jim
Then suffice it to say that your explanation contradicts your espoused theology. You can't have it both ways. Either God works miracles today, or He has meticulously and exhaustively decreed all without exception.Knight said:I have explained my view on this two times already, I don't think I should have to repeat it again.
Of course. More than a decade of experience with Open Theists gives me sufficient grounds to be "so concerned." Have you forgotten your anti-Hilston signatures of the past?Knight said:Wow... Jim, so concerned! :shocked:
For those who understand my concern, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, any explanation would be irrelevant.Knight said:Please explain your concern.
An example of what you might do.Knight said:What might I do (give an example) that would be libelous?
Now who would have the nerve to put misleading comments about other posters in their signature???? :think:Hilston said:Of course. More than a decade of experience with Open Theists gives me sufficient grounds to be "so concerned." Have you forgotten your anti-Hilston signatures of the past?
I would have liked to hear what he thought was inconsistent about what I said. Oh well!Colossians said:I don't think what he is describing is miraculous at all! I believe it is a simple description of how God designed us to be able to "hear from" the Holy Spirit.
You have a consistency problem. Do you attend a fellowship?
Sorry, there is only so much "dumb" a man can take.Delmar said:I would have liked to hear what he thought was inconsistent about what I said. Oh well!
Actually, the question is quite pertinent, and points to a weakness in corporate election. Which view says God is choosing groups, but which group may we say is being chosen here?Clete said:Jim's question is formulated on a false premise (intentionally). It's a trap. Don't answer it at all.
His question is based on a false premise. It is formulated such that one must agree with this false premise to even answer the question at all. It is an intentional trap and tantimount to an outright lie. It is unfortunate that you cannot see it.lee_merrill said:Actually, the question is quite pertinent, and points to a weakness in corporate election. Which view says God is choosing groups, but which group may we say is being chosen here?