ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Lighthouse]

Are you saying that it's possible for an eternal free will agent to not make a mistake?

No.

I've often asked O.T.'s why God didn't destroy Adam after the fall. I believe the same answer applies and is valid to both O.V./C.V. positions.

Open View: If God foresaw Adam fall why did He create Adam?
Closed View: If God saw Adam fall why didn't He destroy Adam?

Actually, when I was closed view, I asked the first question. That's what led me to the open view.

Many answers occur to me:

1) Mercy
2) Jesus
3) God wanted to be Loved

I'm really interested in your reply since this is almost where we began together with your question to E4E. It seems we're coming full circle at last.

Respectfully,
Rob

Actually, my answer is this: God didn't know.

 

[Clete]

I agree. Adam had the ability to do otherwise, God just foreknew Adam wouldn't.

I don't think you can establish this Biblically. It's clear that God had a plan in place in case Adam and Eve sinned but that is not the same as knowing for certain. And as I have proven now I think beyond any intellectually honest doubt that if God did know for certain that Adam would sin then Adam could not have done otherwise.

My point is this:
Could a man, other than Jesus, live an eternity without sinning?

YES! There are thousands of angels all of whom have the ability to disobey God but never have for at least six thousand years. You have nothing Biblical to suggest that the same wasn't possible for mankind.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[hermes]

I am. It says that God declares the end from the beginning. The end is that God sends those who believe to eternal life, and those that do not to eternal condemnation. There is nothing in that verse that requires that God know everthing that happens in the middle.

You see, I believe that God can prophesy what He will do without having to fix every event along the way, and still accomplish His purpose. that's called omnipotence.

Do you think God is able to accomplish His purposes without having to fix the game beforehand?

Michael

without having to "fix every event;" by that you mean not caring enough about certain things, like when a sparrow falls to the earth? After all, you know, there are so many of them and they are such unexceptional birds, why would God care about such things, right? Or maybe you were talking about the number of hairs on your head...surely, you think, God doesn't care about that, right? Or when the lot is cast into the lap---oh, you know, surely He doesn't fix those events along the way. What the heck!! You don't care what the Blble says about such insignifcant things! And if what the Bible says staggers you credulity, you can just say, well, the Bible does not say definitely that all these things are ALWAYS applied without FAIL.You can just say that they are not "normative." That is a good word open theists like to use to set their CREATURELY bounds upon the God who "works ALL things after the counsel of HIs own will." Ah, yes! There are many defiant words men can throw against the word of God forever settled in heaven! No, there are many things that the Lord of heaven and earth has no interest in or any need to govern, like for instance, He didn't REALLY mean it when He said a man will give an account for EVERY idle word---could He?

 

[RobE]

Reply to Clete

Reply to Clete

I don't think you can establish this Biblically. It's clear that God had a plan in place in case Adam and Eve sinned but that is not the same as knowing for certain. And as I have proven now I think beyond any intellectually honest doubt that if God did know for certain that Adam would sin then Adam could not have done otherwise.

This is untrue. We've all agreed from the beginning that Adam would not have done otherwise. You're the one who's asserted He could not have done otherwise.

Premise 2a is flawed unless knowledge of an event is a cause which we agree it isn't. Its failure comes when you realize that the free agent himself is the cause.

Rob

And what makes you think angels don't make mistakes?

 

[RobE]

"Evolving" is used in a lot of different contexts, so can you flesh out what you mean by "evolving"?

Michael

changing, learning, growing

Rob

 

[themuzicman]

changing, learning, growing

Rob

Well, I don't know how the universe would be learning, since it isn't intelligent.

Scientists tell us that the universe appears to be growing, and, in fact, seems to be increasing in the speed in which it gets bigger.

Changing? I think the fact that we see supernovas and asteroids impacting planets and moons and the very nature of time itself shows that the universe is changing. If you mean the nature of the universe, then I don't think so. It appears that God created physical laws for our universe to exist under.

Michael

 

[hermes]

God knows all that is knowable. He does 'learn' as history unfolds in the sense that He now knows that which was possible as actual. He did not know the final score of next weeks Superbowl trillions of years ago. He will become aware of it as the game unfolds in real space-time history.

The possible objects of knowledge are increasing exponentially everyday as new contingencies become certainties.

He does not learn in the sense that He has to study the past to figure it out. He knows the past and present exhaustively, and the future as possible before it becomes certain. This is the nature of the reality that He created, not a deficiency in omniscience or a need to learn things that are knowable.

I am curious. How does godrulz know that God did not know the outcome of the superbowl trillions of years ago? On what is he basing his certainty of that? We are really getting esoteric, aren't we?

 

[RobE]

Well, I don't know how the universe would be learning, since it isn't intelligent.

Scientists tell us that the universe appears to be growing, and, in fact, seems to be increasing in the speed in which it gets bigger.

Changing? I think the fact that we see supernovas and asteroids impacting planets and moons and the very nature of time itself shows that the universe is changing. If you mean the nature of the universe, then I don't think so. It appears that God created physical laws for our universe to exist under.

Michael

How about God? Is He learning, growing, changing(evolving)?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Presuming it had the power to act upon its decisions, it could move out of the way before being struck, it could go jump into a pocket on its own, it could alter its path in spite of how you hit it.

So it would move out of the way even though that action isn't in its nature?


Causality destroys LFW.

Name an effect without a cause.
How does that effect come about?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Originally Posted by RobE

Are you saying that it's possible for an eternal free will agent to not make a mistake?

No.

Don't you think it's probable God knew the same thing?

Rob

 

[Philetus]

I am curious. How does godrulz know that God did not know the outcome of the superbowl trillions of years ago? On what is he basing his certainty of that? We are really getting esoteric, aren't we?

This questions about what godrulz is basing his certainty on, is like throwing out a welcome mat for every tom, dick and philetus. So here’s my two cents on

GOD'S FORKNOWLEDGE OF THE NOT YET SUPERBOWL
by: Philetus​

Good question/bad question:

Good question:
God doesn’t know because it hasn’t happened yet. I don’t even know who they are playing, but, I’ll lay odds God is betting against the Steelers, because you can’t be a stealer and be a Christian. I just know the #1 kicker in the league missed (notice the past tense) a field goal by a mile and the Colts will not playing (notice the future tense). If that didn’t surprise God then God caused it and I really want to know why. In fact its the first question I'm going to ask Jesus when I get to heaven.

Bad question:
Getting esoteric? I thought football had always been impenetrable, cryptic, arcane, obscure and flimsy? I love it.But, what part of “it hasn’t happened yet” is so esoteric?

Philetus
Ps. Place bets by PM.

 

[RobE]

This questions about what godrulz is basing his certainty on, is like throwing out a welcome mat for every tom, dick and philetus. So here’s my two cents on

GOD'S FORKNOWLEDGE OF THE NOT YET SUPERBOWL
by: Philetus​

Good question/bad question:

Good question:
God doesn’t know because it hasn’t happened yet. I don’t even know who they are playing, but, I’ll lay odds God is betting against the Steelers, because you can’t be a stealer and be a Christian. I just know the #1 kicker in the league missed (notice the past tense) a field goal by a mile and the Colts will not playing (notice the future tense). If that didn’t surprise God then God caused it and I really want to know why. In fact its the first question I'm going to ask Jesus when I get to heaven.

Bad question:
Getting esoteric? I thought football had always been impenetrable, cryptic, arcane, obscure and flimsy? I love it.But, what part of “it hasn’t happened yet” is so esoteric?

Philetus
Ps. Place bets by PM.

Well, using your own logic, if the Superbowl hasn't occured yet how do you even KNOW the steelers will be in it? :idea:

Nice play on words 'steelers' and 'stealers'

Rob

 

[hermes]

This questions about what godrulz is basing his certainty on, is like throwing out a welcome mat for every tom, dick and philetus. So here’s my two cents on

GOD'S FORKNOWLEDGE OF THE NOT YET SUPERBOWL
by: Philetus​

Good question/bad question:

Good question:
God doesn’t know because it hasn’t happened yet. I don’t even know who they are playing, but, I’ll lay odds God is betting against the Steelers, because you can’t be a stealer and be a Christian. I just know the #1 kicker in the league missed (notice the past tense) a field goal by a mile and the Colts will not playing (notice the future tense). If that didn’t surprise God then God caused it and I really want to know why. In fact its the first question I'm going to ask Jesus when I get to heaven.

Bad question:
Getting esoteric? I thought football had always been impenetrable, cryptic, arcane, obscure and flimsy? I love it.But, what part of “it hasn’t happened yet” is so esoteric?

Philetus
Ps. Place bets by PM.

"it hasn't happened yet" is not esoteric, but an individual bound by time and space and having definite knowledge that God does not know what the outcome of the SB is going to be--- that is esoteric. What a phenomenal claim to knowledge godrulz has made. Why is is as great as God's knowledge trillions of years ago what the outcome WOULD be.
Godrulz must be the new kid on the block within the pearly gates.

 

[hermes]

Absolutely. These verses simply say nothing about whether the future is knowable.

Michael

Okay, try this one on: "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world." AND "All" things are of God.

 

[Philetus]

Well, using your own logic, if the Superbowl hasn't occured yet how do you even KNOW the steelers will be in it? :idea:

Nice play on words 'steelers' and 'stealers'

Rob

Hey Rob,

Glad you saw the fun in it and by the way, I like the new hat.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

"it hasn't happened yet" is not esoteric, but an individual bound by time and space and having definite knowledge that God does not know what the outcome of the SB is going to be--- that is esoteric. What a phenomenal claim to knowledge godrulz has made. Why is is as great as God's knowledge trillions of years ago what the outcome WOULD be.
Godrulz must be the new kid on the block within the pearly gates.

Okay, try this one on: "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world." AND "All" things are of God.

Ok try this one on: "liten up just a little bit." Philetus 1:37

 

[godrulz]

I am curious. How does godrulz know that God did not know the outcome of the superbowl trillions of years ago? On what is he basing his certainty of that? We are really getting esoteric, aren't we?

Since the Bible is not a systematic theology text, some issues are philosophical/logical. Scripture does portray some aspects of the future as being open/unsettled. You guys interpret these passages figuratively without warrant.

The fact is that the Superbowl was not already played trillions of years ago. Unless God is manipulating every player and play, then the outcome is not a possible object of certain knowledge from before creation. The knowing of a nothing is a bald contradiction. What science fiction movie are you basing your idea that the possible future is the same as the fixed past (or Bible verses)?

 

[godrulz]

Well, using your own logic, if the Superbowl hasn't occured yet how do you even KNOW the steelers will be in it? :idea:

Nice play on words 'steelers' and 'stealers'

Rob

At the time of the post, the writer could know the Steelers are in it because it is a certain object of knowledge since the playoff game is now in the fixed past. This is vastly different than knowing that fact as a certainty from ages past. Contingencies (football has many many) are uncertain and unknowable by nature. One can speculate about possibilities and probabilities (hence betting), but an element of uncertainty exists until the possible future becomes the fixed past through the present.

 

[godrulz]

"it hasn't happened yet" is not esoteric, but an individual bound by time and space and having definite knowledge that God does not know what the outcome of the SB is going to be--- that is esoteric. What a phenomenal claim to knowledge godrulz has made. Why is is as great as God's knowledge trillions of years ago what the outcome WOULD be.
Godrulz must be the new kid on the block within the pearly gates.

These issues are logically, philosophically, and biblically defensible. Get up to speed on the intricate issues before you jump to conclusions.

 

[godrulz]

Okay, try this one on: "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world." AND "All" things are of God.

Chapter and verse for context as well as original language wording or other translations.

God can know the things He intends to bring to pass (Is. 46; 48) such as the First and Second Coming of the Messiah. This does not mean one can extrapolate it to mean that God does everything and man is a mere sock puppet. We are significant others, by God's sovereign choice. Scripture portrays God, in love and humility (true power), as working cooperatively with man (hence the power of prayer), as well as unilaterally at times.