ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[themuzicman]

I'm not postulating the absence of God's interaction with Time, but rather that it may be fundamentally different than the rest of creation, just as God's interaction with Space is fundamentally different from the creation does not remove him from the ability to interact with Space.

Agree.

Thus, part of what we're talking about is the nature of creation: What kind of universe did God create?

Did He create one whereby He defines the whole course of history and all of the past and future are already certain, because He has determined it?

Or did God create a universe whereby the future does not yet exist (thus being logically unknowable), and the universe expands along the dimension of time, constantly coming into being of its own accord, and the nature of that universe (in a very small way) is determined by creatures God gave the libertarian free will to choose from the options availble to them, where God omnisciently knows all things that are logically knowable, which exlcudes the future?

Both are possible. The question is: Which is scriptural?

Michael

 

[themuzicman]

Actually, that was one of the questions I kept asking myself, when I was an Arminianist. I could never quite figure it out. And I figured that answer was that God didn't know. And since I believed He ecxisted outside of time, I figured that He had to choose to not know. But that didn't make sense either, because He would have to know things first, in order to choose not to know them.:dizzy:

I've oftend said that OVT is the logical resolution to Arminianism

 

[hermes]

Which one is Scriptural? This is Scripture: "For of HIm and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever." Rom. 11:36 Do you believe the Bible? We may as well, because He works "all things after the counsel of His own will." Whether we believe it or not has no effect upon the reality of it. "He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and no one stay His hand, or say unto Him, what are you doing?" Again--do you believe the Bible?

 

[themuzicman]

Absolutely. These verses simply say nothing about whether the future is knowable.

Michael

 

[hermes]

Absolutely. These verses simply say nothing about whether the future is knowable.

Michael

To God they are knowable because God says in Isaiah that He knows what the future will be because He decreed what it shall be. Are you familiar with that verse.?

 

[themuzicman]

To God they are knowable because God says in Isaiah that He knows what the future will be because He decreed what it shall be. Are you familiar with that verse.?

I am. It says that God declares the end from the beginning. The end is that God sends those who believe to eternal life, and those that do not to eternal condemnation. There is nothing in that verse that requires that God know everthing that happens in the middle.

You see, I believe that God can prophesy what He will do without having to fix every event along the way, and still accomplish His purpose. that's called omnipotence.

Do you think God is able to accomplish His purposes without having to fix the game beforehand?

Michael

 

[godrulz]

The problems with Open theism lie deeper than most critiques suggest.

Open theists like to picture the God of classical Christian theism as a distant, despotic, micromanaging sovereign. The god of Open theism, on the other hand, is ready to enter into new experiences and to become deeply involved in helping us cope as we, with him, face things we simply did not know would happen. They insist that God has knowledge, but not all knowledge, certainly not knowledge of the future acts of free beings. Such Open theistic inferences reveal a deep-seated devotion to Enlightenment categories and narrow unpoetic imaginations.

Ideas have destinations, and one of the consequences of our trying to read the Scriptures without any poetry in our souls will be the eventual destruction of any possibility of ministering to souls. Just imagine the hymn writer trying to lift up the downcast—"I know not what the future holds, but I know Who also doesn't know much about it either."

Revelation is proof that God is able to bring His project to fulfillment despite the resistance of significant others. He knows that Christ will return and that He will judge the nations (under His control). There are many open roads to take to bring the end to pass. You underestimate an omnicompetent God and overestimate the necessity of meticulous control or exhaustive foreknowledge.

Since Open Theism is a sub-type of Arminianism (free will theism), do you really think that only Calvinists go to heaven? We all affirm the essentials of the faith.

 

[godrulz]

Agree.

Thus, part of what we're talking about is the nature of creation: What kind of universe did God create?

Did He create one whereby He defines the whole course of history and all of the past and future are already certain, because He has determined it?

Or did God create a universe whereby the future does not yet exist (thus being logically unknowable), and the universe expands along the dimension of time, constantly coming into being of its own accord, and the nature of that universe (in a very small way) is determined by creatures God gave the libertarian free will to choose from the options availble to them, where God omnisciently knows all things that are logically knowable, which exlcudes the future?

Both are possible. The question is: Which is scriptural?

Michael

You have a way with words. Can you tell me something of your journey to Open Theism and your influences (authors, books, etc.)? :BRAVO:

 

[godrulz]

Which one is Scriptural? This is Scripture: "For of HIm and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever." Rom. 11:36 Do you believe the Bible? We may as well, because He works "all things after the counsel of His own will." Whether we believe it or not has no effect upon the reality of it. "He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and no one stay His hand, or say unto Him, what are you doing?" Again--do you believe the Bible?

Open Theists love these verses to, except we do not read Calvinistic theology into them. Was it God's will that Hitler kill millions of Jews? Is it God's will that a baby is raped and murdered?

 

[godrulz]

To God they are knowable because God says in Isaiah that He knows what the future will be because He decreed what it shall be. Are you familiar with that verse.?

Is. 46 and 48 (read the context) shows that God predestines some specific things (judgments of historical nations in this case). He knows the future, in those cases, because He will bring it to pass by His great ability (simple foreknowledge is not in view nor should you extrapolate that because God decrees or brings some things to pass that He brings ALL things to pass....this is proven by the ministry of God incarnate, where He opposes evil, not affirms it as God's will).

 

[godrulz]

I am. It says that God declares the end from the beginning. The end is that God sends those who believe to eternal life, and those that do not to eternal condemnation. There is nothing in that verse that requires that God know everthing that happens in the middle.

You see, I believe that God can prophesy what He will do without having to fix every event along the way, and still accomplish His purpose. that's called omnipotence.

Do you think God is able to accomplish His purposes without having to fix the game beforehand?

Michael

God is like a cosmic chessmaster. No matter what the contingencies, He is able to win the game without controlling both sides or every move. He is responsive and providential, not a control freak who always has to get His way through causation. It takes a vastly superior God to bring His purposes to pass despite significant others than one who meticulously controls everything. The former is the biblical model of sovereignty/providence. Who limits God? Not the open theist. God is not locked into a fatalistically settled future. He is the Living God who can change in response to changing contingencies. Prayer, evangelism, guidance, social responsibility, theodicy (problem of evil) become coherent when God is freed from Platonic concepts.

 

[RobE]

Clete

Clete

I am inclined to agree with you. But I"m not quite there yet.
:hammer:
Philetus

Originally Posted by themuzicman

I've not said that foreknowledge determines outcomes. I've said that foreknowledge requires a determined outcome. Some agent must exist and determine the outcome of a decision before it can be known.

Michael

Originally Posted by Clete

Nicely put!

I've said this exact thing to Rob like a thousand times already. I find it impossible to believe that he doesn't see the point. It seems he is intentionally ignoring it. My prediction is that he will not address this point directly but simply reiterate his point over and over again pretending like you didn't make this post until you throw your hands up in frustration and give up like I did.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Have you ever been under the impression that I believe there is some free agent that God didn't foreknow?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Michael,

1) Why must the agent exist? Can't I calculate the path of a billiard ball before it's struck?
Michael: Sure, but a billiard ball doesn't have free will.

What would change if it did?

2)In order for foreknowledge to exist then why does the agent have to exist in reality and not just theory?
Michael: If the agent is making a free will decision, yes.

Why?

3)Am I crazy to believe that God will live forever?
Michael: No.

How can I know He will live forever if the future doesn't exist?


Thanks,
Rob

 

[RobE]

Reply to Lighthouse

Reply to Lighthouse

And if God knew Adam was goign to fall, why did He create him in the first place?

Are you saying that it's possible for an eternal free will agent to not make a mistake?

I've often asked O.T.'s why God didn't destroy Adam after the fall. I believe the same answer applies and is valid to both O.V./C.V. positions.

Open View: If God foresaw Adam fall why did He create Adam?
Closed View: If God saw Adam fall why didn't He destroy Adam?

Many answers occur to me:

1) Mercy
2) Jesus
3) God wanted to be Loved

I'm really interested in your reply since this is almost where we began together with your question to E4E. It seems we're coming full circle at last.

Respectfully,
Rob

 

[themuzicman]

You have a way with words. Can you tell me something of your journey to Open Theism and your influences (authors, books, etc.)? :BRAVO:

Honestly, I was open view before I knew that there was an open view. Ever since I began to study theological things I've seen the obvious contradiction between the free will required for man to be in need of justification, and the necessary determination of the future that informs what would be God's foreknowledge.

I've read "The God who Risks" and Sander's first book on it (title escapes me), and I've been in contact with other Open View Thesist online (at other forums) who have influenced my thinking as well.

I'm in the process of pursuing my M.Div, but I'm well into my career as a DBA, and being the Father of 6 kids, it's going very slowly.

Michael

 

[RobE]

Godrulz

Godrulz

Do not confuse time with space nor omnipresence with omniscience. Time is not a limitation on God like it is for us, yet it is an eternal aspect of His experience.

Experience. Does God learn, Godrulz?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Thus, part of what we're talking about is the nature of creation: What kind of universe did God create?

Did He create one whereby He defines the whole course of history and all of the past and future are already certain, because He has determined it?

Or did God create a universe whereby the future does not yet exist (thus being logically unknowable), and the universe expands along the dimension of time, constantly coming into being of its own accord, and the nature of that universe (in a very small way) is determined by creatures God gave the libertarian free will to choose from the options availble to them, where God omnisciently knows all things that are logically knowable, which exlcudes the future?

Both are possible. The question is: Which is scriptural?

Michael

Both in my view. However, I was wondering if you believe the universe is evolving?

Rob

 

[themuzicman]

Michael,

1) Why must the agent exist? Can't I calculate the path of a billiard ball before it's struck?
Michael: Sure, but a billiard ball doesn't have free will.

What would change if it did?

Presuming it had the power to act upon its decisions, it could move out of the way before being struck, it could go jump into a pocket on its own, it could alter its path in spite of how you hit it.

2)In order for foreknowledge to exist then why does the agent have to exist in reality and not just theory?
Michael: If the agent is making a free will decision, yes.

Why?

Because LFW decision requires an LFW agent, an LFW moment, and a circumstance with choices for the agent choose from. If a decision is known only having these things in theory, then it has been determined either directly by another agent or the decisionmaking is governed by some law, and either way, the decision was not contingint upon the person making the decision, so it wasn't free.

3)Am I crazy to believe that God will live forever?
Michael: No.

How can I know He will live forever if the future doesn't exist?

Because of God's nature.

Michael

 

[themuzicman]

Both in my view. However, I was wondering if you believe the universe is evolving?

Rob

"Evolving" is used in a lot of different contexts, so can you flesh out what you mean by "evolving"?

Michael

 

[godrulz]

Experience. Does God learn, Godrulz?

Rob

God knows all that is knowable. He does 'learn' as history unfolds in the sense that He now knows that which was possible as actual. He did not know the final score of next weeks Superbowl trillions of years ago. He will become aware of it as the game unfolds in real space-time history.

The possible objects of knowledge are increasing exponentially everyday as new contingencies become certainties.

He does not learn in the sense that He has to study the past to figure it out. He knows the past and present exhaustively, and the future as possible before it becomes certain. This is the nature of the reality that He created, not a deficiency in omniscience or a need to learn things that are knowable.