ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

You wanna bet? God sees everything, and will judge everything. God hears everything and will judge every word spoken or written.

False dichotomy.

People will be judged for every idle word they speak. That however does not falsify my position. All knowable information is either known by God or is able to be found out by Him.

Not in the "forgotten" sense, but in the sense of propitiation. The blood of Christ covers all the sins of His people, and His priestly mediation continually presents the sons of God, fit and cleansed of sins, to stand reconciled before the Father.

Funny how Isaiah used the wrong word then, eh? :think:

"His own sake" is the glorification of the Son. God takes great pleasure in the efficacacy of the sacrificial blood of the Lamb!

Funny how that isn't what the text says. He says He will forget it for His own sake. I don't understand why you can't take God at His word but then again, according to you, God says things He doesn't mean quite often, doesn't He?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

False dichotomy.

People will be judged for every idle word they speak. That however does not falsify my position. All knowable information is either known by God or is able to be found out by Him.

Your position is false if you claim God does not choose to know what is going on in every bathroom and every bedroom. He does not need to find out . . .He is always there!

Funny how Isaiah used the wrong word then, eh? :think:


Funny how that isn't what the text says. He says He will forget it for His own sake. I don't understand why you can't take God at His word but then again, according to you, God says things He doesn't mean quite often, doesn't He?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You must be a strict literalist, eh?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I'm still undecided about the Open/Settled issue.

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how God knowing what I will do tomorrow means that I have no choice and that he caused my actions?

thanks

 

[Nang]

I'm still undecided about the Open/Settled issue.

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how God knowing what I will do tomorrow means that I have no choice and that he caused my actions?

thanks

Foreknowledge is not causal.

Omniscience is an attribute of God, not an instrument of God.

 

[Clete]

Your position is false if you claim God does not choose to know what is going on in every bathroom and every bedroom. He does not need to find out . . .He is always there!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You must be a strict literalist, eh?

Not at all. I take literally what there is no good reason to take as a figure of speech.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Yorzhik]

Foreknowledge is not causal.

You're wrong. Exhaustive foreknowledge is causal.

 

[Nang]

You're wrong. Exhaustive foreknowledge is causal.

What Scripture teaches this?

 

[Clete]

I'm still undecided about the Open/Settled issue.

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how God knowing what I will do tomorrow means that I have no choice and that he caused my actions?

thanks

Ignoring Nang's stupidity for the moment (i.e. no one suggested (as of this writing) that foreknowledge is causal), the answer to you question hinges on what it means to know something and what it means to be free or, as you put it, to have a choice.

If something [general] is known then it cannot be otherwise. [Definition of "known"]

If your action [specific] is known then you cannot do otherwise.

If you cannot do otherwise when you act then you do not act freely. [Definition of "free"]

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

A simple example from scripture: Jesus told Peter that he would deny him 3 times before the **** crowed. Peter did deny Jesus by his own will, yet Jesus foreknew it. How does this fit into the open/settled issue?

 

[Clete]

You're wrong. Exhaustive foreknowledge is causal.

Nang's question is non-sequitor; There is no scripture that teaches that foreknowledge is causal but that doesn't prove that it isn't. It isn't because knowledge of a thing does not cause a thing. Foreknowledge is incompatible with free will but it isn't because it is causal but because it logically eliminates all possible outcomes but one leave us without the ability to choose and therefore without freedom.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

A simple example from scripture: Jesus told Peter that he would deny him 3 times before the **** crowed. Peter did deny Jesus by his own will, yet Jesus foreknew it. How does this fit into the open/settled issue?

Jesus prophesied that Peter would deny Him, He did not KNOW that he would deny Him. Peter could have repented and Jesus' prophecy would have failed and Jesus would have been elated about it. It wouldn't have ruined the Bible nor would it have made Jesus a false prophet. All Biblical prophecies are contingent upon repentance - all of them. See Jeremiah 18 and Jonah (the whole book).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You are correct, my word is not sufficient, so here are some Scriptures that teach about God's all-knowing presence, everywhere:

Deut. 11:12, II Chronicles 29:6, Jeremiah 42:2, Amos 9:8, Micah 7:10

"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. . . If I say, 'Surely the darkness shall fall on me; even the night shall be light about me; indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You." Psalm 139:7,8,11,12

"The dead tremble, those under the waters and those inhabiting them. Sheol is naked before Him, and Destruction has no covering." Job 26:6

"Hell and Destruction are before the Lord; so how much more the hearts of the sons of men." Proverbs 15:11

"Though they dig into hell, from there My hand shall take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down; and though they hide themselves on top of Carmel, from there I will search and take them; though they hide from My sight at the bottom of the sea, from there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them; though they go into captivity before their enemies, from there I will command the sword, and it shall slay them. I will set My eyes on them for harm and not for good." Amos 9:2-4

 

[Clete]

You are correct, my word is not sufficient, so here are some Scriptures that teach about God's all-knowing presence, everywhere:

Deut. 11:12, II Chronicles 29:6, Jeremiah 42:2, Amos 9:8, Micah 7:10

"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. . . If I say, 'Surely the darkness shall fall on me; even the night shall be light about me; indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You." Psalm 139:7,8,11,12

"The dead tremble, those under the waters and those inhabiting them. Sheol is naked before Him, and Destruction has no covering." Job 26:6

"Hell and Destruction are before the Lord; so how much more the hearts of the sons of men." Proverbs 15:11

"Though they dig into hell, from there My hand shall take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down; and though they hide themselves on top of Carmel, from there I will search and take them; though they hide from My sight at the bottom of the sea, from there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them; though they go into captivity before their enemies, from there I will command the sword, and it shall slay them. I will set My eyes on them for harm and not for good." Amos 9:2-4

Nice, I already beat you to the proof-texting gig.

Try again.

 

[Nang]

Nang's question is non-sequitor; There is no scripture that teaches that foreknowledge is causal but that doesn't prove that it isn't.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

It isn't because knowledge of a thing does not cause a thing. Foreknowledge is incompatible with free will but it isn't because it is causal but because it logically eliminates all possible outcomes but one leave us without the ability to choose and therefore without freedom.

Resting in Him,
Clete

It would be so much easier for you and the others, if you would just drop the "free" stuff.

There is no such thing as a "free" human will.

The will of man was designed to submit to its Master. That does not grant men freedom to make choices autonomously from one's Master.

And now that mankind serves under bondage to its master, Satan, the will of man is not "free" at all! The will of man is totally enslaved to serving only sin, death, and the devil.

(Everyone should read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will.")

Nang

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jesus prophesied that Peter would deny Him, He did not KNOW that he would deny Him. Peter could have repented and Jesus' prophecy would have failed and Jesus would have been elated about it. It wouldn't have ruined the Bible nor would it have made Jesus a false prophet. All Biblical prophecies are contingent upon repentance - all of them. See Jeremiah 18 and Jonah (the whole book).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Just not sure about this one, Clete. I just can't see how Jesus, who is God, could
issue a prophecy that could possibly fail.

Extending this idea to it's logical conclusion, future events in the book of Revelation may never take place if humanity repents...despite that fact God has
said concerning Revelation "...things which MUST shortly come to pass"

 

[Clete]

Just not sure about this one, Clete. I just can't see how Jesus, who is God, could
issue a prophecy that could possibly fail.

Why not? I gave you Scripture references where it had happened before and why. There are actually several prophecies in the Bible that did not come to pass as stated and repentance or lack thereof was always the reason as per the warning given in Jeremiah 18. Jeremiah 18 is perhaps the most important chapter in the whole Bible!

Extending this idea to it's logical conclusion, future events in the book of Revelation may never take place if humanity repents...despite that fact God has
said concerning Revelation "...things which MUST shortly come to pass"

Exactly! If man repents then the result for the whole world will have been foreshadowed in the book of Jonah.

There are other prophecies where God said that He would "without fail" do something that He just absolutely did not do. He didn't do them because Israel was evil, again in accordance with the warning given in Jeremiah 18.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

The statement implied a logical argument. I'm not at all surprised that you glossed over it.

It would be so much easier for you and the others, if you would just drop the "free" stuff.

There is no such thing as a "free" human will.

The will of man was designed to submit to its Master. That does not grant men freedom to make choices autonomously from one's Master.

And now that mankind serves under bondage to its master, Satan, the will of man is not "free" at all! The will of man is totally enslaved to serving only sin, death, and the devil.

(Everyone should read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will.")

Nang

Notice Nang's predominant presupposition is God's power and/or authority. She, as do all Calvinists, systematically subordinates God's righteousness, love and other qualitative attributes to His power, size, knowledge and other quantitative attributes. It is the fundamental difference between Calvinism and the Open View.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Exactly! If man repents then the result for the whole world will have been foreshadowed in the book of Jonah.

If I may interject, you are misleading. You speak as if Nineveh was spared God's predicted judgment. God did not change His mind, or go back on His word. God's message given through Jonah spoke of 40 days, with the intent of demonstrating His grace through the granting of repentance amongst the people (which made Jonah angry), but Nineveh was eventually judged and overthrown just as God said.

Just as souls will read the Book of Revelation, and repent unto salvation, and be spared the judgments revealed therein. But the prophesied judgments will still fall upon the unbelieving world at large. They will surely come to pass.

There are other prophecies where God said that He would "without fail" do something that He just absolutely did not do. He didn't do them because Israel was evil, again in accordance with the warning given in Jeremiah 18.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You must remember God's Word in the hand of His Holy Spirit is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways. A prophecy can be a blessed promise for God's elect, but a certain warning of judgment to the ungodly. Rarely does God make universal statements, but rather He wields His word to work both blessing and curse upon whom He wills.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If I may interject, you are misleading. You speak as if Nineveh was spared God's predicted judgment. God did not change His mind, or go back on His word. God's message given through Jonah spoke of 40 days, with the intent of demonstrating His grace through the granting of repentance amongst the people (which made Jonah angry), but Nineveh was eventually judged and overthrown just as God said.

That isn't what God said.

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. - Jonah 3:10

You say God "did it" God says He didn't! :idunno:

 

[Clete]

If I may interject, you are misleading. You speak as if Ninevah was spared God's predicted judgment.

Jonah prophecied that in 40 day Ninevah would be detroyed but they weren't because they repented and Jonah was unrighteously angry about how it turned out.

This is the whole plot of Jonah in a nutshell and it happens to go right along with Jeremiah 18.

God did not change His mind, or go back on His word. God's message given through Jonah spoke of 40 days, with the intent of demonstrating repentance amongst the people (which made Jonah angry), but Ninevah was eventually judged and overthrown just as God said.

No it wasn't just as God said. God said 40 days.
Further, when Nineveh was destroyed it had nothing to do with the prophecy of Jonah.

Just as souls will read the Book of Revelation, and repent unto salvation, and be spared the judgments revealed therein. But the prophesied judgments will still fall upon the unbelieving world at large. They will surely come to pass.

Not according to Jonah 3:10 and Jeremiah 18 and the other dozen or so prophecies that did not come to pass.

Don't get me wrong. I fully expect the prophecies in Revelation to come to pass. The idea that mankind as a whole will repent is so unlikely that it's hardly worth discussing but the point holds that IF the world repents then so will God.

You must remember God's Word in the hand of His Holy Spirit is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways. A prophecy can be a blessed promise for God's elect, but a certain warning of judgment to the ungodly.

There is nothing Biblical that you need bother reminding me of Nang.
The fact is that prophecy is intended more often than not as a warning to whomever hears it whether Godly or not. That's one of its primary purposes.

Rarely does God make universal statements, but rather He wields His word to work both blessing and curse upon whom He wills.

For "upon whom He wills" read "arbitrarily".

Once again, Nang presents God sovereignty over and above His justice.

Resting in Him,
Clete