ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[elected4ever]

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Ok, Jesus replied, lets try this another way, Use the door, Nick.

The being born experience explained, 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A literal event accomplished by God in the life of the believer!

 

[elected4ever]

What are the odds?

The odds of what? You geting it? Probabuby .00 -1

 

[Philetus]

The being born experience explained, 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A literal event accomplished by God in the life of the believer!

And 'whoever enters through the door', isn't literal in your view?

 

[elected4ever]

You could lose your soul, something very precious to God.

Your soul does not belong to God and the chance of you loosing it is 100% .That is why God has to create you anew by his seed and then it is 100% that you keep your life because it is God who keeps you.

 

[Philetus]

Oh! Hey, you are right about one thing. I don't get it. I thought it ALL belonged to God.

 

[elected4ever]

Ya can't lose something you never actually had.

That is why those who are not born again by the righteous seed of God can't lose their salvation. They never had salvation to began with.

 

[elected4ever]

Oh! Hey, you are right about one thing. I don't get it. I thought it ALL belonged to God.

it is not God's if you can lose it.

 

[godrulz]

The new birth is not the same as saying, I am the door or I am the vine or I am the gate Those are the analogies. Jesus said, "You must be born again." An event that must occur in the life of the believer. I get tired of your non belief. Your denial of the work god accomplishes in the lives of Children. I ran out of patients with you a long time ago.

I have repeatedly said the new birth is a necessity and reality. We must be born again and regenerated by the Spirit. What I am saying is that grammatically and exegetically, the phrase itself is a metaphor for the truths about regeneration. If Jesus would have said 'You must be regenerated', I would not call it a metaphor, but I would say that it means the same thing as 'You must be born again' (a metaphor since born again taken literally would imply a return to the womb). It is a grammatical issue that acts as a comparison. It conveys truth.

Saying it is a metaphor is NOT saying the new birth is not real, necessary, or spiritual reality.

Whether you want to be a good or bad grammarian/exegete does not change the fact that we agree on regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

[elected4ever]

And 'whoever enters through the door', isn't literal in your view?

Your still on your fruitloops I see.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I have repeatedly said the new birth is a necessity and reality. We must be born again and regenerated by the Spirit. What I am saying is that grammatically and exegetically, the phrase itself is a metaphor for the truths about regeneration. If Jesus would have said 'You must be regenerated', I would not call it a metaphor, but I would say that it means the same thing as 'You must be born again' (a metaphor since born again taken literally would imply a return to the womb). It is a grammatical issue that acts as a comparison. It conveys truth.

Saying it is a metaphor is NOT saying the new birth is not real, necessary, or spiritual reality.

Whether you want to be a good or bad grammarian/exegete does not change the fact that we agree on regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

does spiritual baptism = regeneration?

 

[Clete]

Is this thread about Open Theism or OSAS or what?

 

[elected4ever]

Is this thread about Open Theism or OSAS or what?

This is the normal battle between the Armenians and Calvinist. OSAS is the crux of the division between the two. I don't think it can be avoided. The Openview is more Armenian and by in large believe that salvation must be maintained by the individual rather than God. There are truths maintained by the Calvinist like OSAS that I support but I reject the predestined salvation of the believer that the Calvinist teach. I support the free will of man to come to Christ to receive salvation as you do but I reject the OV/ Arminian position that it is us who must maintain it. To me, life is maintained by God. So yes we are caught in the quagmire of the centuries old fight between the Armenians and the calvinist.

 

[Nang]

I'm tellin' ya; she isn't here to debate. She's here because she discovered that I post here and she wants to harass me because I called her husband stupid on another discussion forum about a year ago. Neither she's nor her husband would know a debate if one walked up, introduced itself and then slapped them in the face. Beg and plead all you like, she will not make an argument. She will proclaim anything and everything she disagrees with to be false teaching and heresy and she will insist that anyone and everyone who thinks she's a complete nut case is lost and going to hell in a hand basket, but she will never make a bona-fide argument, or at least I've never once seen her do so on either this forum or any other.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I do not see the Lord commanding His disciples to debate infidels. The sons (and daughters) of God are commanded to proclaim the true gospel of grace, and then trust that God will work as He pleases to either save or condemn according to His Word.

Besides, elected4ever is doing a fine job countering all this OVT nonsense. :thumb: I will support him, for I agree so far with all he has said.

Nang

 

[Philetus]

Is this thread about Open Theism or OSAS or what?

This thread is about as thread bare as it gets right now.

 

[Philetus]

I do not see the Lord commanding His disciples to debate infidels. The sons (and daughters) of God are commanded to proclaim the true gospel of grace, and then trust that God will work as He pleases to either save or condemn according to His Word.

Besides, elected4ever is doing a fine job countering all this OVT nonsense. :thumb: I will support him, for I agree so far with all he has said.

Nang

Thats like saying, "I won't debate you, I'll let E4E do it. I'm perfectly happy to let somebody else do my sinning."
Who did the Lord 'command' you to debate?

"I agree so far with all he has said."
Did somebody mention the shock value in that statement?:doh:
Do you agree with his 'name calling'?
I personally enjoy it, because I think I know his heart and am not the least offended by it. He takes it as well as he gives it. With he and I at least, there is nothing at stake in the jousting.

We aren't here because the Lord 'commanded' us to be. We are here to freely debate theologies. If you see it the other way, what in the world are you doing in a theological debate forum, Miss Obedient?

 

[Philetus]

Your still on your fruitloops I see.

Yep, and you on your coco puffs. :thumb:

 

[Clete]

This is the normal battle between the Armenians and Calvinist. OSAS is the crux of the division between the two.

So in other words, you are off topic then, right?

Open Theists are not Calvinist, Arminians nor Armenians!

I don't think it can be avoided.

You mean you can't avoid it. You're a one note band E4e. Everything has to be about whether we can or cannot sin with you.

The Openview[sic] is more Armenian[sic] and by in large believe that salvation must be maintained by the individual rather than God.

I would ordinarily say something about how this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen you post but that wouldn't really apply so I'll just stick with..

This is utterly ridiculous. I have next to nothing in common with Arminians and even less in common with Calvinists. I happen to believe strongly that one cannot under any circumstance lose their salvation but it has virtually nothing to do with my stance on open theism.

There are truths maintained by the Calvinist like OSAS that I support but I reject the predestined salvation of the believer that the Calvinist teach.

But for no good reason aside from the fact that you just don't like the idea that your salvation was predestined. You, more than anyone I can think of, pick and choose whatever doctrine you want in a willy-nilly fashion. It's pathetic.

I support the free will of man to come to Christ to receive salvation as you do but I reject the OV/ Arminian position that it is us who must maintain it.

You are truly stupid E4e. You've been on this website for years and know little or nothing about the open view. Do you even know how to read?

To me, life is maintained by God. So yes we are caught in the quagmire of the centuries old fight between the Armenians and the calvinist.

I don't care about was is true "to you" and this thread has nothing to do with Arminianism vs. Calvinism. Arminianism is less heretical than is Calvinism because of many of the conclusions it comes too but it is at the same time less logically coherent. Whatever correctness it happens to find, it does so in spite of itself, much like the Baptists do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I do not see the Lord commanding His disciples to debate infidels. The sons (and daughters) of God are commanded to proclaim the true gospel of grace, and then trust that God will work as He pleases to either save or condemn according to His Word.

Why should I care what "you don't see".

Besides, elected4ever is doing a fine job countering all this OVT nonsense. :thumb: I will support him, for I agree so far with all he has said.

Nang

:rotfl:

Now I couldn't have asked for a more appropriate thing than for you, of all people on the planet, to side with E4e, who still thinks that the Open View has something to do with Arminian theology!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hey Clete,

What are the basic beliefs of Open Theism? I had never heard of it until
I joined this forum. thanks.

 

[Nang]

This is the normal battle between the Armenians and Calvinist. OSAS is the crux of the division between the two. I don't think it can be avoided. The Openview is more Armenian and by in large believe that salvation must be maintained by the individual rather than God. There are truths maintained by the Calvinist like OSAS that I support but I reject the predestined salvation of the believer that the Calvinist teach. I support the free will of man to come to Christ to receive salvation as you do but I reject the OV/ Arminian position that it is us who must maintain it. To me, life is maintained by God. So yes we are caught in the quagmire of the centuries old fight between the Armenians and the calvinist.

elected4ever,

You have my support in countering the OVT claims; however, I must publically disagree with you regarding your belief that men receive salvation according to the exercise of their free wills. I say this, not to argue with you, which would be OT, but to clarify my Reformed position, and advocation of the five points of grace (TULIP). I believe sinners are saved solely by the will and grace of God.

IMO, OVT is the sorry and bad fruit produced by Arminianism.

Nang