ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

Is there anyone other than the ding bats who are present say something that they are waiting for me to respond too?

If so please let me know what the post number is and I'll respond. I'm short on time and can't take the time right now to read through all the chat mode stuff you guys posted last night.

 

[godrulz]

My shoe size is 10.

 

[Clete]

My shoe size is 10.

I think the ding bat shoe comes in a one size fits all. It'll fit pretty much anyone who tries it on.

 

[Philetus]

Slippers or flip-flops?

 

[Philetus]

Is there anyone other than the ding bats who are present say something that they are waiting for me to respond too?

If so please let me know what the post number is and I'll respond. I'm short on time and can't take the time right now to read through all the chat mode stuff you guys posted last night.

It went down hill really fast last night/this morning, especially after Bill Clinton and Johnny Boy both showed up.


Sorry, I'll get back on track and keep the chit-chat to a millennium.

 

[baloney]

Patman, I don't see the point of verse sliding. I know the Old Testament was written by the people of the Jewish faith who believe that God is omniscient and therefore know the past present and future and that he is eternal and transcends time.

This is the view of God that we have inherited from the Jewish faith.

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

 

[Lighthouse]

So, when y'all figure out why Christ died for all those people He knew would go to Hell, or those who were not predestined for salvation, then maybe we can have a real discussion...

 

[Clete]

Patman, I don't see the point of verse sliding. I know the Old Testament was written by the people of the Jewish faith who believe that God is omniscient and therefore know the past present and future and that he is eternal and transcends time.

This is the view of God that we have inherited from the Jewish faith.

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

That website does not give ancient Jewish beliefs but modern ones. Modern Jews believe the omni's and im's for the same reason Catholics and Calvinists do. The history of the beliefs is very well documented. There is no doubt about it, we have Aristotle and Plato to thank for such beliefs, not the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

That website does not give ancient Jewish beliefs but modern ones. Modern Jews believe the omni's and im's for the same reason Catholics and Calvinists do. The history of the beliefs is very well documented. There is no doubt about it, we have Aristotle and Plato to thank for such beliefs, not the Bible.

Resting in Him,
:dizzy: Clete

I nominate Clete for president of the ding Bat Club. I use to think that godrulz was the front runner but things have changed.

 

[baloney]

Clete, can you support with evidence anywhere that the ancient Jewish beliefs did not include an eternal and omniscient God?

 

[godrulz]

I nominate Clete for president of the ding Bat Club. I use to think that godrulz was the front runner but things have changed.

Perhaps we could be pres and vice-pres? I am not sure Clete wants to be lumped in with me, though I am the lesser of two 'evils' if you are in the picture.

 

[godrulz]

Clete, can you support with evidence anywhere that the ancient Jewish beliefs did not include an eternal and omniscient God?

Open Theists, Jews, and Christians (OT are Christians) believe that God is eternal and omniscient.

The Hebraic view of eternity is endless time (Ps. 90:2...God has a history, His story), not timelessness (eternal now/simultaneity is a Platonic Greek idea adopted by the philosophical Augustine and others).

Omniscience means that God knows all that is knowable. The future does not exist, so it is not a deficiency in omniscience to not know a nothing. God correctly knows the potential future as possible and partially unsettled, not certain and settled (the issue is the nature of creation, not whether God is all-knowing or not...He is).

 

[baloney]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-15524303.html

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Godrulz. As the article in the link explains the truth is actually vice versa. It was the Hebraic view that God transcends time and nature.

The Greek Gods evolve out of time. This is why Aquinas and other theologians had to defend the Hebraic view of time against rediscovered Greek philosophy.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Godrulz. As the article in the link explains the truth is actually vice versa. It was the Hebraic view that God transcends time and nature.

The Greek Gods evolve out of time. This is why Aquinas and other theologians had to defend the Hebraic view of time against rediscovered Greek philosophy.

Plato wrote, “For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal essence...that which is immovably the same, 'is eternal'."

Aristotle wrote, "There is something that moves things while being itself immovable and existing in actuality (without any potential for change), it is not possible in any way for that thing to be in any state other than in which it is."

Plato's "Eternal Essence" and Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" were clearly immovable, changeless, and timeless.

 

[BillH]

Does God really have the constraints of time?

Does God really have the constraints of time?

That we exist in time and are constrained by time, doesn't mean that God also is constrained in time. God has no limits.

God chooses to enter time as he pleases. But that doesn't mean God exists in time in the same way that we do.

This idea has pretty deep consequences. It helps explain how Jesus's death and resurrection isn't bound by time and how his salvific action continues to wash all sins away. One doesn't need to hold that his sacrifice is truly past. His work is timeless. This explains how an act started 2000 years ago...can continue to have its effect today..and in the future. Future sins haven't occurred...but Christ's enduring saving action hides those sins from the Father's eyes for all time.

One doesn't have to mentally wrestle and mumble and arm wave about the mechanics of how the effect of Christ's saving action pre-dates the need for it (e.g, future sin). His saving action is not bound by time.

 

[BillH]

If God is Love and God has no future, no past, then what does this tell us about Love

If God is Love and God has no future, no past, then what does this tell us about Love

Knowing that God is Love, is the source of all Love...then what this means is also very important.

It re-clarifies what love really is. Our society (the devil) wants us to be fuzzy about what real love is (sacrificing action). The devil wants us to think that love is fondness, love is an emotion, love is a feeling, love is reciprical in a tit-for-tat fashion. Love is none of these.

If God doesn't have a past and doesn't have a future..this means that we can only love in the present.

We can't love in the past..and we can't love in the future...we can only lay our life down for others today...in the present...because God only has a present.

We can intend to love someone in the future....we can have sacrificied for someone in the past...but we can't love in the future or the past. We can only love (sacrifice for others) in the present.

 

[elected4ever]

Perhaps we could be pres and vice-pres? I am not sure Clete wants to be lumped in with me, though I am the lesser of two 'evils' if you are in the picture.

As a member of the club I give you both my full support.

 

[Lon]

That website does not give ancient Jewish beliefs but modern ones. Modern Jews believe the omni's and im's for the same reason Catholics and Calvinists do. The history of the beliefs is very well documented. There is no doubt about it, we have Aristotle and Plato to thank for such beliefs, not the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Also Godrulz

No, no, no (where's the finger waving icon?)

The Hebrews base all of their theology on ancient writings. The books, the Midrash, the Talmud and other ancient commentaries. To say they are influenced by Greek philosophers is a big no no no to them. You'd have a very hard time proving this case. It ain't gonna happen partner(s).

 

[Lon]

Plato wrote, “For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal essence...that which is immovably the same, 'is eternal'."

Aristotle wrote, "There is something that moves things while being itself immovable and existing in actuality (without any potential for change), it is not possible in any way for that thing to be in any state other than in which it is."

Plato's "Eternal Essence" and Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" were clearly immovable, changeless, and timeless.

Sorry Dave,
You missed his point entirely. I'd suggest a re-read before the premise gets lost.

 

[Clete]

Also Godrulz

No, no, no (where's the finger waving icon?)

The Hebrews base all of their theology on ancient writings. The books, the Midrash, the Talmud and other ancient commentaries. To say they are influenced by Greek philosophers is a big no no no to them. You'd have a very hard time proving this case. It ain't gonna happen partner(s).

If they believe that God is immutable and that He exists outside of time the only thing ancient that they could possibly base such a belief on are the writings of Plato. There is no evidence that any such belief predated those writings. None. If you read Genesis with the Greek Philosophy glasses taken off, you don't get the idea that God knows every aspect of the future, you don't get the idea that God controls every detail of the universe, you don't get the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. Those are all Greek ideas that started with Aristotle, not Moses.

Resting in Him,
Clete