ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Philetus]

Philetus wrote:
Quote:
Here is a text I’ve been looking at for a while. Any thoughts on this one Pastor Hill?

Gen 16:13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."

Philetus wrote:

Here is a text I’ve been looking at for a while. Any thoughts on this one Pastor Hill?

Gen 16:13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."
​

Philetus,

I did a lot of searching on this one before I found something in “Leupold on the Old Testament” Genesis.

Here is how he translated it. “And she called the name of Yahweh who spoke unto her, Thou art El Roi (a God of seeing); for she said: Have I indeed here been permitted to look after Him who sees me?”

What do you think?

Bob Hill

Thanks Pastor Hill. I found it interesting that very little seems to be said in commentaries regarding what is meant by "see the one who sees me." Not many seem to want to tackle this verse in light of "no one has ever seen God". I'm not strong in biblical languages and even though my Greek is far better than my Hebrew, I'm no Greek scholar. :dunce:

The NVSV, usually a good literal translation of 16:13 is
So she named the Lord who spoke to her, "You are El-roi"; F49 for she said, "Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?" F50
is honest enough to add FOOTNOTES:
F49: Perhaps [God of seeing] or [God who sees]
F50: Meaning of Heb uncertain

So, Leupold's translation is helpful if the intent "permitted to look after Him who sees me" refers to being permitted to 'see' myself (life/circumstances) from God's perspective which makes sense from the context ... to look after God, (over his shoulder in a way) and recognize his hand is upon us to bless us. Wow, what an incredible God we serve who actually increases our trust in Him by allowing us to see ourselves as HE sees us. The promise to increase her descendants gave her hope.

If the same principle is applied to Revelations, that God is permitting John to "look after Him" or to "see from His perspective" what was happing and that God wouldn't allow the circumstances of the first century church under the oppressive domination of the empire (anymore than the oppressive domination of Sarah over Hagar) to thwart HIS agenda then the widely held perspective that John was "seeing" the future looses its punch.

So my question is: "Did John literally SEE God sitting on the throne .... and then live to tell it?" (even as some translations report Hagar's experience in the desert?)

Just thinking out loud.
Philetus

 

[Lon]

Thanks Pastor Hill. I found it interesting that very little seems to be said in commentaries regarding what is meant by "see the one who sees me." Not many seem to want to tackle this verse in light of "no one has ever seen God". I'm not strong in biblical languages and even though my Greek is far better than my Hebrew, I'm no Greek scholar. :dunce:

The NVSV, usually a good literal translation of 16:13 is
So she named the Lord who spoke to her, "You are El-roi"; F49 for she said, "Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?" F50
is honest enough to add FOOTNOTES:
F49: Perhaps [God of seeing] or [God who sees]
F50: Meaning of Heb uncertain

So, Leupold's translation is helpful if the intent "permitted to look after Him who sees me" refers to being permitted to 'see' myself (life/circumstances) from God's perspective which makes sense from the context ... to look after God, (over his shoulder in a way) and recognize his hand is upon us to bless us. Wow, what an incredible God we serve who actually increases our trust in Him by allowing us to see ourselves as HE sees us. The promise to increase her descendants gave her hope.

If the same principle is applied to Revelations, that God is permitting John to "look after Him" or to "see from His perspective" what was happing and that God wouldn't allow the circumstances of the first century church under the oppressive domination of the empire (anymore than the oppressive domination of Sarah over Hagar) to thwart HIS agenda then the widely held perspective that John was "seeing" the future looses its punch.

So my question is: "Did John literally SEE God sitting on the throne .... and then live to tell it?" (even as some translations report Hagar's experience in the desert?)

Just thinking out loud.
Philetus

Good questions. Theophanies could explain the appearance to Mary, which seems likely at this venture, and from memory.

Bringing John's vision in is a good thought. What does the verse about this actually say? Needs some study, and then discernment. Great questions.

 

[Philetus]

Open Theism shows us that God can, and does change His mind, at times.

:thumb:
And that God adjusts to the results/consequences of our choices.

One more thought on the above from Genesis.

8 And he said, "Hagar, slave-girl of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?" She said, "I am running away from my mistress Sarai." 9 The angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit to her."

10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, "I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude." 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Now you have conceived and shall bear a son; you shall call him Ishmael, F48 for the Lord has given heed to your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild *** of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and he shall live at odds with all his kin."

Even though Hagar and Ishmael were not part of God's intended plan for Abe and Sarah, God didn't abandon them to die in the desert. God ascribes worth and value to all humans regardless of where they come from, or how they got here or what unfolds in the future because of their being here.

I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but think how different the circumstances in the middle east may have been today if God had simply allowed Ishmael to die as an infant. Or if Sarah hadn't been so helpful in trying to make the impossible possible. How quick we are to judge rather than love our enemies.

Yet, God is able! Omnicompetant! He will deal with the results/consequences of our choices without compromising who He is or what He intends.

 

[Philetus]

Ok, one more before I turn into a pumpkin.

John reports that on the night he was betrayed, knowing where he came from, who he was and where he was going … Jesus took a towel and washed the feet of his disciples.

What an incredible God! And what confidence even as a servant!

Sometimes I think that our preoccupation with “SEEING” God (knowing where God is coming from and where He is going in all this) eclipses the importance of our seeing ourselves from God’s perspective.

 

[Philetus]

Good questions. Theophanies could explain the appearance to Mary, which seems likely at this venture, and from memory.

Bringing John's vision in is a good thought. What does the verse about this actually say? Needs some study, and then discernment. Great questions.

F50: "Meaning of Heb uncertain"

Which verse are you referring to?
Discernment in light of the big picture or just in light of a word study?

Tomorrow is another day.

 

[Lon]

Ok, one more before I turn into a pumpkin.

John reports that on the night he was betrayed, knowing where he came from, who he was and where he was going … Jesus took a towel and washed the feet of his disciples.

What an incredible God! And what confidence even as a servant!

Sometimes I think that our preoccupation with “SEEING” God (knowing where God is coming from and where He is going in all this) eclipses the importance of our seeing ourselves from God’s perspective.

Excellent post. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Bob Hill]

The next event that will occur in God’s prophetic program is the rapture of the body of Christ.


2 Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ is now present. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

That will start a sequence of many prophesied events.

The first one will be the rapture of the Body of Christ - all believers in Jesus Christ as their Savior, will be caught up by God to be in heaven with God.

What a blessing that will be.

Bob Hill

 

[Lon]

F50: "Meaning of Heb uncertain"

Which verse are you referring to?
Discernment in light of the big picture or just in light of a word study?

Tomorrow is another day.

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit, and a throne was standing in heaven with someone seated on it!
Rev 4:3 And the one seated on it was like jasper and carnelian in appearance, and a rainbow looking like it was made of emerald encircled the throne.
Rev 4:4 In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on those thrones were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white clothing and had golden crowns on their heads.
Rev 4:5 From the throne came out flashes of lightning and roaring and crashes of thunder. Seven flaming torches, which are the seven spirits of God, were burning in front of the throne

Your other post inspired me to focus on the curtain torn in two.

Mar 15:38 And the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: "Look! The residence of God is among human beings. He will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more — or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist."
Rev 21:5 And the one seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new!" Then he said to me, "Write it down, because these words are reliable and true."

Rev 22:3 And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him,
Rev 22:4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

 

[Bob Hill]

"The open view of God is growing in America.

In my experience with Calvinists is, they don't like it one bit.

The most important thing that I would advise everyone is to be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your mate and other Christians who may disagree with you.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Good questions. Theophanies could explain the appearance to Mary, which seems likely at this venture, and from memory.

Bringing John's vision in is a good thought. What does the verse about this actually say? Needs some study, and then discernment. Great questions.

There is no such thing as a theophany.

 

[Bodger]

Various comments:

1) Calvinists would definitely not like Open Theism

2) But not all Arminians like it either, I for one am fully in the Arminian camp. But where I differ with OT is the limits of God's knowledge. IMHO I believe He is not restricted by time and therefore knows how all things play out. God gives us the choices and we exercise our free-will, but the final outcome is still known by God. You have pointed out some very good scripture that indicates or leaves the impression that God changed His mind, I still believe that He knew what the outcomes were going to be but the actions still needed to be taken. But of course this is just an opinion, we will not find out in this lifetime unless we are fortunate enough to be around for the 2nd coming.

3) I noticed that you mentioned you believed in the "pre-trib" rapture. Typically that would put you in the camp of the "Dispensational Premillennialism". I am not an expert on Dispensationalism but is there any conflicts with Open Theism from the Dispensational camp?

Bodger

 

[elected4ever]

"The open view of God is growing in America.

In my experience with Calvinists is, they don't like it one bit.

The most important thing that I would advise everyone is to be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your mate and other Christians who may disagree with you.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I am an open theist Bob, but it does not follow that all things are open. Some things are beyond our knowledge and human understanding. Plus add to that the difficulty of communication with language and we may believe identically. it is not a salvation issue but an unlimited open view leads to legalism and error just as Calvinism leads to fatalism.

 

[godrulz]

"The open view of God is growing in America.

In my experience with Calvinists is, they don't like it one bit.

The most important thing that I would advise everyone is to be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your mate and other Christians who may disagree with you.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

The Reformed-Calvinist vs Arminian/Open Theism issue does have political and power-base overtones. They feel they are the gatekeepers of Reformational truth and the rest of us are out to lunch. This division in the Church is unfortunate.

I concur that our desire should be for biblical truth at all costs.

 

[godrulz]

There is no such thing as a theophany.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was given Deity-descriptors. The pre-incarnate Christ is a credible concept.

 

[godrulz]

e4e is an Open Theist? Since when? News to me. His views seem more Calvinistic, if anything.

Some vs all of the future is open, BTW (two motifs affirmed by Open view...God can settle some things, but that does not mean those things actually happen before they happen).

 

[Lon]

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was given Deity-descriptors. The pre-incarnate Christ is a credible concept.

Thanks bro, I was going to finish reading before addressing this. That is the encapsulated answer I would have given.

 

[Lon]

e4e is an Open Theist? Since when? News to me. His views seem more Calvinistic, if anything.

Some vs all of the future is open, BTW (two motifs affirmed by Open view...God can settle some things, but that does not mean those things actually happen before they happen).

Some of his views. He's a unique theological animal. I don't think you'd be able to peg him down. Kinda like a platypus: Duck? Beaver?

 

[elected4ever]

e4e is an Open Theist? Since when? News to me. His views seem more Calvinistic, if anything.

Really, news to me.

Some vs all of the future is open, BTW (two motifs affirmed by Open view...God can settle some things, but that does not mean those things actually happen before they happen).

Never said things happen before they will happen. That is your imagination at work. However the going forth of the word assures that it will happen. Man is unable to change it even with all his effort. He can only decide within it ether in fellowship with the word or apposed to the word but the word does not change.

 

[elected4ever]

Some of his views. He's a unique theological animal. I don't think you'd be able to peg him down. Kinda like a platypus: Duck? Beaver?

:rotfl:

 

[godrulz]

Really, news to me.

Never said things happen before they will happen. That is your imagination at work. However the going forth of the word assures that it will happen. Man is unable to change it even with all his effort. He can only decide within it ether in fellowship with the word or apposed to the word but the word does not change.

The things that God determines (first and second coming of Christ, future judgments, etc.) will come to pass by His ability (Is. 46; 48). The mistake is to extrapolate this to mean that He determines everything. By his sovereign choice, he decided to not settle everything and give us genuine freedom so that love and relationships would be possible. Idi Amin killing 300,000 Ugandans was not God's predestined plan for a higher purpose. It was the evil of a man, energized by Satan, in a war against God and His creation. He was judged in the end. Just because God did not intervene immediately does not mean He intended or desired this. It grieved God and was contrary to His will.