elected4ever
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And what might that be?
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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What is your understanding of the Godhead? Are you Arian? Modalist? Trinitarian. I am too old to play games. The Trinity is the best expression of biblical revelation as to the nature of God.
elected4ever
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Who are those guys?
God is God by nature. I have never heard Him call Himself by those names.
Cults are evasive. You can do better than this. What is the relationship about the biblical revelation relating to the one God and the identities Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those labels are for theological discussion.
Lon
Well-known member
I see that you are going to be in a few pages with E4E again on a topic so I can hold off and check back once inawhile. Eternity has a 'timeless' quality to its definition. Quality jumped to mind over 'quantity' or progression. I told the person your response so I'll get back to you if there is a response.
elected4ever
New member
So are you. Even to the extent of calling God a liar but be that as it may.
I believe in only one God and He is by His very nature God. Just because he has manifest Himself to man in three ways does not make Him three.
Huh? Are you a Jesus only oneness modalist denying the historical trinitarian beliefs? Yes or No (quit playing games).
There are not 3 gods. There is one God. The Father is not the Son, yet they share the one essence of God. They are more than offices or modes. They are personal distinctions.
Lon
Well-known member
Yes, same question here for me as well. Modalism?
Amen, it is always a good thing when we agree on something, and that's significant.
elected4ever
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Jesus is the word of God manifest in the flesh. It is the word that is eternal. The body of Jesus was not born until 2000 years ago. Jesus is the first begotten Son of God.
elected4ever
New member
That sounds a bit ridiculous. I know of no time that the Father, the Spirit and the Word not existing at the same time.
You are correct. We agree with you. We are just not sure if you think these distinctions are personal or mere offices/modes that Jesus steps into. I would be surprised if you are not trinitarian. Jobeth seems to lean to modalism though.
To be sure, many believers cannot articulate trinitarian understanding. Even the early church had a more experiential relationship with the Trinity. It was not until various heresies that attacked orthodoxy came on scene that the Church was forced to formalize their doctrinal understanding (not invent it) in defense.
Lon
Well-known member
True, and I believe you are correct for the same 'page'ed-ness' (sorry, that is just horribly stated, 'Armenianism' comes to mind).
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Philetus wrote:
Philetus,
I did a lot of searching on this one before I found something in “Leupold on the Old Testament” Genesis.
Here is how he translated it. “And she called the name of Yahweh who spoke unto her, Thou art El Roi (a God of seeing); for she said: Have I indeed here been permitted to look after Him who sees me?”
What do you think?
Bob Hill
Philetus,
I did a lot of searching on this one before I found something in “Leupold on the Old Testament” Genesis.
Here is how he translated it. “And she called the name of Yahweh who spoke unto her, Thou art El Roi (a God of seeing); for she said: Have I indeed here been permitted to look after Him who sees me?”
What do you think?
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Since I am one who believes the Open View of God, here is why I believe this is the right view.
It helps us develop an honest responsible life in our personality.
It shows us there is real choice for man, rather than making man a semi robot.
It shows that we are responsible to follow God’s directions so we will be His ministers on Earth.
It causes freedom for mankind and contingency to exist.
The application of God’s word to certain passages clears up problems.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable.
There are some things God does not know beforehand.
Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not, under the law of freedom.
Jer 3:7 “God said ‘She will return to Me!’ But she did not return”
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41).
Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken.
Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5.
God broke a promise sworn to the fathers of Israel because of disobedience in Num 14:23,30,34.
When God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him, Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
It helps us develop an honest responsible life in our personality.
It shows us there is real choice for man, rather than making man a semi robot.
It shows that we are responsible to follow God’s directions so we will be His ministers on Earth.
It causes freedom for mankind and contingency to exist.
The application of God’s word to certain passages clears up problems.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable.
There are some things God does not know beforehand.
Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not, under the law of freedom.
Jer 3:7 “God said ‘She will return to Me!’ But she did not return”
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41).
Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken.
Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5.
God broke a promise sworn to the fathers of Israel because of disobedience in Num 14:23,30,34.
When God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him, Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Lon
Well-known member
THUS proving my point. Thanks bro. Exactly: 'Page-edness,' Horrible.
Lon
Well-known member
Thanks Bob,
This is one of those areas where I appreciate the OV emphasis. Although you might get some contention from SV on all points, my only consideration is "fore-knowledge." Time is such a hard discussion for grasping if even one point of our logic is faulty on it. This is why I admit to some of the logic problems, but I don't want to close the door all the way (or 'open' it) on something scripture seems to uphold, as in our discussion concerning John's Revelation of the future, experienced and written down at the Lord's direction. It just doesn't seem plausible to read it any other way.
While you agree that God has 'foreknowledge' and that it is 'real' knowledge, it seems that it then also becomes an OV dilemma and not just my own. My understanding of scripture interpretation has me wondering if we can say for sure that God doesn't know something. I'm not saying that the door should be wide open either (or shut as the case may be). I'm saying I don't want to be the one touching the door with a determination like that. It looks like God's door to me. I don't want to be presumptuous one way or the other. We have God's Word and must try and discern what He's saying to us, but I'm just not as clear on which way the door should swing. OV says 'open' and SV says 'closed.' My tradition and understanding has it 'closed.'
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Open Theism shows us that God can, and does change His mind, at times.
Here is an example in 2 Kings 20:1-5.
Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah in 2 Kings 20:1-5 that he would die soon, but he didn’t die.
2 Kings 20:1-5 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ” 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3 “Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”
Bob Hill
Here is an example in 2 Kings 20:1-5.
Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah in 2 Kings 20:1-5 that he would die soon, but he didn’t die.
2 Kings 20:1-5 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ” 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3 “Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”
Bob Hill
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