elected4ever
New member
I might add that there was no flaw in the design or workmanship of God's creation untell man decided to abuse God's creation. Are you saying that God made a mistake in puting man in charge of His creation? :noway:
Certainly, agreed...elected4ever said:I might add that there was no flaw in the design or workmanship of God's creation untell man decided to abuse God's creation.
No, I'm saying when God sees a sinful deed about to take place, and makes a choice to allow it to happen, then that involves God in the consequences of that deed, then there is responsibility for the outcome, or (in another case) in removing the hedge, around a righteous man...Are you saying that God made a mistake in puting man in charge of His creation?
Wasn't man given dominion over this creation? Is it not man's responsibility to properly use what God had made him in charge off?lee_merrill said:Not necessarily, but if someone sees them about to injure someone else with their product, and chooses not to stop this when they could, then there is responsibility.
Blessings,
Lee
Right, but let's not be deists! God is involved in the world, and makes decisions to intervene, when he sees a sinful act that must not take place. So then to decide not to intervene would bring a measure of responsibility for the consequences, just as it would with us with a rock (that we didn't push) rolling down a hill, that we could stop. In our case, we didn't even make the rock, or the man, but there is still responsibility for the consequences.elected4ever said:Wasn't man given dominion over this creation? Is it not man's responsibility to properly use what God had made him in charge off?
If God intervenes then is God taking back control if that intervention is not requested by man? Man would not have dominion if God took back control arbitrarily. Is it not man's responsibility to request help from God?lee_merrill said:Right, but let's not be deists! God is involved in the world, and makes decisions to intervene, when he sees a sinful act that must not take place. To decide not to intervene then would bring a measure of responsibility for the consequences.
Blessings,
Lee
Certainly God's intervention is not arbitrary, yet he also doesn't ask permission from Herod, when he stops his sinning, as one example.elected4ever said:If God intervenes then is God taking back control if that intervention is not requested by man? Man would not have dominion if God took back control arbitrarily.
Was Job better or worse off as a result of his trials?lee_merrill said:No, I'm saying when God sees a sinful deed about to take place, and makes a choice to allow it to happen, then that involves God in the consequences of that deed, then there is responsibility for the outcome, or (in another case) in removing the hedge, around a righteous man...
Blessings,
Lee
God certainly answered the prayer of someone. I agree it wasn't Herod. The prayers of a righteous man avails much. Hummmm, maybe John the Baptist? :think:lee_merrill said:Certainly God's intervention is not arbitrary, yet he also doesn't ask permission from Herod, when he stops his sinning, as one example.
God is not dancing attendance on man's free will--"The Lord, he is God..."
So then in God's decisions to intervene, or not to intervene, this entails responsibility.
Blessings,
Lee
Much better, "You have seen what the Lord finally brought about," says James, and "When he has tried me, I will come forth as gold," said Job. "We consider those blessed who have persevered," and rightly so.elected4ever said:Was Job better or worse off as a result of his trials?
That could be, yet God still does act in the world sometimes without a specific request, I would say, though he gave the earth to man, the Lord is King over all the earth, and we are then his servants.God certainly answered the prayer of someone. I agree it wasn't Herod. The prayers of a righteous man avails much. Hummmm, maybe John the Baptist?
elected4ever said:Then why does the OVer insist that God changes His mind and can make amends for past mistakes that he made because of poor judgement? You can't have it both ways. I agree that pure Calvinism is wrong but so is the OVT that I have seen on this board. Just because one is wrong in certain assumptions does not make the opposite right. We need not place one in one camp or the other.
Yet this is actually "Into my heart," are we to conclude that God did not think of even the possibility that Judah would sin in this way? The thought of this possibility did not in any way occur to him?Bob Hill said:What did have in mind when He said in Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?Bob Hill said:God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.
I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.Bob Hill said:Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.
The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.
patman said:I have to start a new topic before Lee drags me back in.
I always wondered what it would have been like had Adam and Eve not sinned and t things went according to his plan. I have no basis for this, but maybe someone can validate or invalidate it:
Would god have ever let Adam and Eve eat of the tree "Once they were grown up enough?"
Perhaps this belongs in a different thread, but the best OVers are on here...
Who is Matt Slick?themuzicman said:Been listening to Matt Slick again, have we? :bang:
Muz
Lighthouse said:Jacobus Arminius is now an open theist.
elected4ever said:Who is Matt Slick?
I only meant that now that he is in Heaven, he is now an OVer. Just like John Calvin. Or even Augustine.godrulz said::noway: Huh? (you made me laugh...Open Theism is a free will theism like Arminianism, but they differ on exhaustive foreknowledge, as you know).
Lighthouse said:I only meant that now that he is in Heaven, he is now an OVer. Just like John Calvin. Or even Augustine.
elected4ever said:I might add that there was no flaw in the design or workmanship of God's creation untell man decided to abuse God's creation. Are you saying that God made a mistake in puting man in charge of His creation? :noway:
lee_merrill said:You all say I rejoice in injury and affliction? That's a pretty serious charge, if so, how do you know this?
But what I meant was some responsibility for the consequences that will happen, as in allowing a rock to roll down a hill towards a house, when you could stop it.
Blessings,
Lee