elected4ever
New member
OH I KNOW THE OVer
elected4ever said:Be careful Philetus, God might change his mind about you. The difference between you and me is that God's plan was [size =4] COMPLETED[/size]in His own mind before the earth was and remember, God instructs you. You do not instruct God. Its amazing how much power you have over God to cause Him to change His plan because you did something that God didn't plan for. Well shut :shut: my mouth. Man has authority over God! Who would have thunk it.
elected4ever said:Be careful Philetus, God might change his mind about you. The difference between you and me is that God's plan was [size =4] COMPLETED[/size]in His own mind before the earth was and remember, God instructs you. You do not instruct God. Its amazing how much power you have over God to cause Him to change His plan because you did something that God didn't plan for. Well shut :shut: my mouth. Man has authority over God! Who would have thunk it.
So there has to be the possibility of rape so there can be free will...godrulz said:In His sovereignty He allows this without losing control of the universe. He will bring His purposes to pass, but this does not mean that He purposes for people to be raped and killed.
No, not war, can anyone bring any difficulty to God, or test his ability to any real degree? But see Psalm 2, "Your God is too small," as in J.B. Phillip's book to that title.Warfare, not blueprint...your worldview is flawed. Read the gospels and ministry of Christ. Warfare, not blueprint!
lee_merrill said:Hi everyone,
So then God allowed Satan to take away.
Could God not have stopped any or all of this? If he could have, then he made a decision which affected Job, when he saw these actions about to take place.
So then God changed these boundaries (which I think is what was meant by the hedge, by the way), and this affected Job.
Not the Sabeans? Satan was not instrumental when people were involved?
It is if it refers to sinful deeds, is this not your view?
Yet Jesus spoke of blasphemy when the Pharisees said he drove out demons by the prince of demons.
Blessings,
Lee
Well yes, I would conclude he did this lest they turn back, the word "perhaps" is not in the text.Bob Hill said:Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
What does that bolded statement mean? Did God know for sure what Israel would do?
Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?Bob Hill said:God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.
I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.Bob Hill said:Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.
The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.
You are no longer in the service of sin. Sin was our master and we served sin. With or without the law. Now we are in the service of righteousness. We serve righteousness. There is no freedom to choose to continue in sin. We cannot serve sin Our service to sin has been eliminated and our service to righteousness is established. We do not have the choice not to serve righteousness.Bob Hill said:When we trust in Christ as our Savior, an abundance of things happen. We are now free from the law. We must realize that we were freed from sin.
This is really clearly shown in Rom 6:3,4,6,7,18,22 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . . 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him , that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been justified from sin. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been set free from sin and having become slaves of God, you have [two things] your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
lee_merrill said:And [you have skipped my question again here] if his plans do not always turn out well, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?
Well, you can trust his intent, but not his counsel, if God's plan can sometimes be wrong, that is the point!patman said:It is naive to think you cant trust God because he allows true freedom to exist......
lee_merrill said:Well, you can trust his intent, but not his counsel, if God's plan can sometimes be wrong, that is the point!
Blessings,
Lee
elected4ever said:OH I KNOW THE OVer
lee_merrill said:Well, you can trust his intent, but not his counsel, if God's plan can sometimes be wrong, that is the point!
Blessings,
Lee
:up:themuzicman said:If you knew us, you would be one of us. :doh:
Muz
No, certainly they don't. But if some plans can fail, then we cannot always trust God's counsel, because another choice might turn out better, even from God's perspective.patman said:Paraphrasing Lee: "I created the entire universe, yet don't trust me. My conditional plans nullify everything."
So if the Bible says the Lord took away, then that is who did it? And then Satan only served the Lord's good purpose, with a bad intent, as the Sabeans served the devil's intent, not with an intent to serve the devil, but to serve themselves.Lee: Not the Sabeans? Satan was not instrumental when people were involved?
Patman: If the bible says the Sabeans did it, that is who did it. Satan put them up to it.
Foolish fellow that I am, when I read "the trouble the Lord had brought on him," I think it means the Lord brought the trouble. This argument OVTers say is extraordinarily complex and convoluted, and yet they only tell me it's a figure of speech or a manner of speaking [i.e. it doesn't mean what it plainly says] because the context says otherwise, only the context says the Lord took away, every person in the whole book says the Lord did it, and the Lord does not correct this, Scripture even says this. And yet they will deny this, and tell me a flat denial is all I'm going to get. I believe that, at this point! Sad to say.But you will not humble yourself and step away from the evil teachings you have.
No, what I meant is that the taking away involved sinful deeds, so then if the Lord did this, to say the Lord did cause a sinful deed, in your view, would then be blasphemous.Patman: Even what he said is not blaspheme, "shall we take good from god and not bad" and "The Lord takes away" are a far cry from blaspheme.
Lee: It is if it refers to sinful deeds, is this not your view?
Patman: I just said it wasn't didn't I? Job didn't understand what was going on.
So then God made a choice when he saw these events happening, and to see a rock about to roll into a house, and not stop it, when you could, involves you in the consequences.God can stop sin. God will stop sin too. But not before he knows who will love God.
So this is a choice God makes, and then what happened to Job was chosen in your view to be allowed to continue, for this purpose. Then God indeed was involved in what happened to Job, he has responsibility here.God must allow for good and evil until he knows what everyone will choose.
Originally Posted by lee_merrill
Well, you can trust his intent, but not his counsel, if God's plan can sometimes be wrong, that is the point!
Your right, it doesn't make sense. So why do you purpose such foolishness? It makes no sense to you ,Lee or mepatman said:That just doesn't make any since.
:up:elected4ever said:Your right, it doesn't make sense. So why do you purpose such foolishness? It makes no sense to you ,Lee or me