ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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elected4ever
New member
If that is what you believe then there is no place of agreement for you and me. You don't even believe the Bible. How much less you would believe me. You are just another blind guide of the blind. Have it your way. You wish to believe the lie. Go for it. I am done with this conversation.Clete said:
Philetus
New member
.............It is a well know fact …….. The Chihuahua's bark is worse than his bite.
As my dear, dear friend and brother in Christ said while pulling on my ear, “We all make mistakes. Philetus just makes more than the rest of us.” Then he tightened my collar.
It's going to be o.k., Lee.
He is right.
As my dear, dear friend and brother in Christ said while pulling on my ear, “We all make mistakes. Philetus just makes more than the rest of us.” Then he tightened my collar.
It's going to be o.k., Lee.
He is right.
patman
Active member
I took the liberty to make some corrections to the names of the people in your post.... Corrections are bolded
Lee, not that I mind being refereed to as the great Philetus, it might be a good thing to check your sources....... see what is going on a little closer.
I can see you will never read Job right. I cannot explain to you how to take in the story. You will not realize "Ohh, Job said this, and Elihu said that."
But alas, I will try yet again....
Lets start here... you said, "Clearly Elihu is saying God struck Job" because Elihu said "But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment and justice have taken hold of you." (Job 36:17)
Now with out repeating myself, how do I show you how you are taking it out of context? Oh wait, I just repeated myself by even asking that question. -Sigh-
Job many times proclaimed "God punishes me though I am innocent," and this is sin. Job sinned by saying this. Now enter Elihu. He tells Job he sinned and how he sinned. Now what happens to sinners? Well the become laden with the judgement due the wicked. Duh.
Soooo don't you think that after considering context this is what Elihu meant?
He certainly didn't tell Job God punishes the innocent. Because that is the opposite of what is right, lee.
After all, Elihu said "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice."(Job 34:10-12)
Soo it appears God repays man according to their works lee. Scripture says God brings disaster on those who deserve disaster. He repays men according to their works. Why don't you just trust scripture?
As for the Cross. God did not force the cross on Jesus. He sat the cup before Jesus, Jesus took it. He allowed it to happen to himself.
lee_merrill said:
Lee, not that I mind being refereed to as the great Philetus, it might be a good thing to check your sources....... see what is going on a little closer.
I can see you will never read Job right. I cannot explain to you how to take in the story. You will not realize "Ohh, Job said this, and Elihu said that."
But alas, I will try yet again....
Lets start here... you said, "Clearly Elihu is saying God struck Job" because Elihu said "But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment and justice have taken hold of you." (Job 36:17)
Now with out repeating myself, how do I show you how you are taking it out of context? Oh wait, I just repeated myself by even asking that question. -Sigh-
Job many times proclaimed "God punishes me though I am innocent," and this is sin. Job sinned by saying this. Now enter Elihu. He tells Job he sinned and how he sinned. Now what happens to sinners? Well the become laden with the judgement due the wicked. Duh.
Soooo don't you think that after considering context this is what Elihu meant?
He certainly didn't tell Job God punishes the innocent. Because that is the opposite of what is right, lee.
After all, Elihu said "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice."(Job 34:10-12)
Soo it appears God repays man according to their works lee. Scripture says God brings disaster on those who deserve disaster. He repays men according to their works. Why don't you just trust scripture?
As for the Cross. God did not force the cross on Jesus. He sat the cup before Jesus, Jesus took it. He allowed it to happen to himself.
lee_merrill
New member
Hi everyone,
Job 42:11 They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him…
Job 42:12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first.
Job was faithful under trial, and was richly rewarded.
Zechariah 13:9 This third I [note: “I”] will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.'
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Blessings,
Lee
From Patman, as he pointed out to me (thank you!) yet you made the same exact claim Patman did, so then you will get the same answer.Philetus said:
So if you open the door so the lion gets out of his cage, you had no agency in what the lion did in roaming about the earth?
It’s actually quite simple, if you ask the same question, you get the same answer! Maybe with the wrong name on it, but…Patman said:
Certainly, all I am saying here is that Elihu says that God struck Job—for his sin, of course, and in this Elihu was wrong. But here, and throughout the book, even with the mention of the devil and the Chaldeans and others doing sinful deeds, all agree that God was acting here, and Scripture confirms it.
Job 42:11 They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him…
Certainly God repays people according to their works, and the Lord repaid Job here for his faithfulness and perseverance:
Job 42:12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first.
Job was faithful under trial, and was richly rewarded.
Zechariah 13:9 This third I [note: “I”] will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.'
Yet the Father gave this cup to Jesus, there was agency here, and was it not God's decision to bring about salvation for sinners by Jesus' sacrifice at the hands of sinful men?
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Blessings,
Lee
lee_merrill
New member
Hi Clete,
Your own separate reply here...
“God is love” is the pinnacle of all the statements about God, and love is actually the pinnacle of God’s power, for “love never fails.”
Blessings,
Lee <- Why do you never bless me, if your emphasis is love, and mine is power? May I ask...
Your own separate reply here...
With this hermeneutic, you can prove anything! Just say “don’t be woodenly literal,” just take the whole of Scripture—which remarkably enough fits exactly with my theology—and thus this verse can’t mean what it seems to say … so just put the required meaning in there.Clete said:
This is most ironic.
This is really too much. Ignore the plain meaning? I claim the plain meaning of “The Lord took away” is that the Lord took away, “the trouble the Lord brought on Job” means the Lord brought trouble on him, so the Open Theists are the ones ignoring the plain meaning, to suit a pet doctrine.
No, it’s both quality and quantity.
This however is a false dichotomy, for all God’s attributes are both qualities and quantities, perfect holiness and righteousness and power, infinite in wisdom and love and understanding, forever faithful.
You perhaps know somehow, my thoughts, my motives? No, for me God’s love is primary, I am in fact an authority on my own beliefs, and you do not somehow know them better than I do.
“God is love” is the pinnacle of all the statements about God, and love is actually the pinnacle of God’s power, for “love never fails.”
Blessings,
Lee <- Why do you never bless me, if your emphasis is love, and mine is power? May I ask...
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
When you look at the whole Bible, then study the New Testament, there are two main but strikingly different gospels that God presented to mankind. Remember, the word gospel means good news in Greek. One of these gospels is associated with a conditional covenant.
The other is conditioned only on believing that Christ died for your sins.
The reason for so much of the confusion among Christians lies with those who do not distinguish between these two gospels and, yet, attempt to indoctrinate the rest of Christendom.
The fact that there are two gospels is revealed in Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.
The gospel of the circumcision is the one linked with the conditional covenant called the covenant of circumcision. It has conditions. This covenant was made between God and Abraham. Stephen mentioned it in his defense before he was stoned to death. It’s found in Acts 7:8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day.
When this gospel was first preached by John the Baptist, he came only to the nation of Israel calling them to repentance. They had to believe and be water baptized to be saved.
Later, after Christ died, and ascended into heaven, Peter preached on the day of Pentecost that water baptism was necessary to be saved. They had to believe and be water baptized to be saved. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
They also had to have good works to be saved. Since he did not know the truth that God gave to Paul, Peter preached the remission of sins even when he was preaching to the Gentile household of Cornelius in Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
That’s not all. They also had to forgive others or else their own sins would not be forgiven. Mat 6:14,15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Further, they had to keep His commandments according to 1 Jo 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We also find in that great circumcision epistle written by James to the twelve tribes of the dispersion that they will be judged by the law. Jam 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Then, we also see repeatedly that they may fall from salvation, yes even lose their salvation.
For instance, in 1 John 5:16 it says, “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.”
Also, the promises God makes about answering prayer are much more certain. Whatever they pray according to His will they will receive. That’s what is says in 1 Jo 5:14,15. “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
The other is conditioned only on believing that Christ died for your sins.
The reason for so much of the confusion among Christians lies with those who do not distinguish between these two gospels and, yet, attempt to indoctrinate the rest of Christendom.
The fact that there are two gospels is revealed in Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.
The gospel of the circumcision is the one linked with the conditional covenant called the covenant of circumcision. It has conditions. This covenant was made between God and Abraham. Stephen mentioned it in his defense before he was stoned to death. It’s found in Acts 7:8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day.
When this gospel was first preached by John the Baptist, he came only to the nation of Israel calling them to repentance. They had to believe and be water baptized to be saved.
Later, after Christ died, and ascended into heaven, Peter preached on the day of Pentecost that water baptism was necessary to be saved. They had to believe and be water baptized to be saved. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
They also had to have good works to be saved. Since he did not know the truth that God gave to Paul, Peter preached the remission of sins even when he was preaching to the Gentile household of Cornelius in Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
That’s not all. They also had to forgive others or else their own sins would not be forgiven. Mat 6:14,15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Further, they had to keep His commandments according to 1 Jo 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We also find in that great circumcision epistle written by James to the twelve tribes of the dispersion that they will be judged by the law. Jam 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Then, we also see repeatedly that they may fall from salvation, yes even lose their salvation.
For instance, in 1 John 5:16 it says, “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.”
Also, the promises God makes about answering prayer are much more certain. Whatever they pray according to His will they will receive. That’s what is says in 1 Jo 5:14,15. “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
For us, today, in the Dispensation of Grace, the gospel of the uncircumcision is quite different.
There is one condition. All we must do is believe, to be saved. Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Though works are not necessary for our salvation, God wants us to have good works.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Our forgiveness is not dependant on our forgiving others. Our forgiveness is the reason that we should forgive others. In other words, we should forgive others because we have been forgiven.
Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
Instead of our salvation depending on the keeping of the law, we find that God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, will enable us to keep the righteous requirement of the law.
Rom 8:3,4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
In contrast to what the circumcision believers had to believe who were addressed by Peter, James, and John, we members of the Body of Christ are not under the law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
There is one condition. All we must do is believe, to be saved. Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Though works are not necessary for our salvation, God wants us to have good works.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Our forgiveness is not dependant on our forgiving others. Our forgiveness is the reason that we should forgive others. In other words, we should forgive others because we have been forgiven.
Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
Instead of our salvation depending on the keeping of the law, we find that God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, will enable us to keep the righteous requirement of the law.
Rom 8:3,4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
In contrast to what the circumcision believers had to believe who were addressed by Peter, James, and John, we members of the Body of Christ are not under the law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Not only do we not have to keep the law to be saved, we who put our trust in Christ are also sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.
Prayer for our dispensation may be discouraging. God doesn’t seem to answer our prayers in the positive manner He did for the circumcision believers. The physical blessings are not guaranteed.
But here is the wonderful blessing He promises us. When you pray, His peace will flood your heart.
Phi 4:6,7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Prayer for our dispensation may be discouraging. God doesn’t seem to answer our prayers in the positive manner He did for the circumcision believers. The physical blessings are not guaranteed.
But here is the wonderful blessing He promises us. When you pray, His peace will flood your heart.
Phi 4:6,7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
You’ve probably noticed that churches deal with these Scriptural contradictions in dramatically different ways. There are Covenant theologians, Dispensational theologians, Charismatics, and Historic Premillennialists, to name a few. Some think there are two major theological groups, Calvinists and Arminians. Even though that is too simplistic we will use that division to examine some of the answers to the problems we are examining.
Calvinists do believe in what is called perseverance of the saints. They refer to 1 Jo 2:19. “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”
A little different view is held by the Arminians. They believe you’ll be saved if you continue in a faith which produces a godly life. They refer to passages in the epistles written by the Circumcision writers.
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
Both creeds are strongly legalistic, and they both get the basis for their teaching from the Bible. This is why we must understand the differences between the Gospel of the Uncircumcision and the Gospel of the Circumcision.
But here’s the main problem. Both of these groups get much of the evidence for their creeds from inspired material given to Paul for the Dispensation of Grace. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word which means house law. It is the rules by which a house is run. God has different methods of dealing with man at different times. Not all dispensations are different in regards to salvation, but there are many dispensations where God’s method of salvation is different.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Calvinists do believe in what is called perseverance of the saints. They refer to 1 Jo 2:19. “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”
A little different view is held by the Arminians. They believe you’ll be saved if you continue in a faith which produces a godly life. They refer to passages in the epistles written by the Circumcision writers.
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
Both creeds are strongly legalistic, and they both get the basis for their teaching from the Bible. This is why we must understand the differences between the Gospel of the Uncircumcision and the Gospel of the Circumcision.
But here’s the main problem. Both of these groups get much of the evidence for their creeds from inspired material given to Paul for the Dispensation of Grace. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word which means house law. It is the rules by which a house is run. God has different methods of dealing with man at different times. Not all dispensations are different in regards to salvation, but there are many dispensations where God’s method of salvation is different.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
I want to look at the big difference in assurance and security. I’m going to look at the differences from a dispensational viewpoint.
When the circumcision gospel presents salvation, its view is the end of faith.
Salvation will be revealed in the last time, not now.
1 Pe 1:5,9 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 receiving the end of your faith - the salvation of your souls.
In agreement with this, another circumcision gospel is assured, if you abide in Christ.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
It is assured if those in the tribulation endure to the end of the tribulation, according to Mat 24:13,14.
Mat 24:13,14 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
When the circumcision gospel presents salvation, its view is the end of faith.
Salvation will be revealed in the last time, not now.
1 Pe 1:5,9 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 receiving the end of your faith - the salvation of your souls.
In agreement with this, another circumcision gospel is assured, if you abide in Christ.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
It is assured if those in the tribulation endure to the end of the tribulation, according to Mat 24:13,14.
Mat 24:13,14 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Salvation is on the line for the Circumcision Believers who fall away according to Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
A similar example is found in 2 Pet 2:18-21 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Under the circumcision gospel, a person can commit an unpardonable sin or wander into sin, resulting in the death of his soul. This is found in John’s and James’s writings.
1 Jo 5:16-18 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Jam 5:19,20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Election is similar. You may be one of the elect, but you can only keep your election if you are diligent.
2 Pe 1:10,11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
A similar example is found in 2 Pet 2:18-21 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Under the circumcision gospel, a person can commit an unpardonable sin or wander into sin, resulting in the death of his soul. This is found in John’s and James’s writings.
1 Jo 5:16-18 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Jam 5:19,20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Election is similar. You may be one of the elect, but you can only keep your election if you are diligent.
2 Pe 1:10,11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
It’s quite different under the uncircumcision gospel. That’s us!
The gospel for us, today given to Paul by the resurrected and ascended Lord, Jesus Christ, tells us that we have salvation as soon as we believe.
Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Our salvation is secure. In contrast to other dispensations, our salvation is both sealed and guaranteed.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
We members of the Body of Christ have our security.
Once we believe, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.
This body of Christ was elected to be holy and blameless before the earth was created.
Eph 1:4,5,11 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. Our adoption as sons who cannot be disinherited, according the metaphor of adoption that Paul uses, is also secure because it has been predestined. God will make sure it happens.
Our response to this wonderful spiritual blessing of security should be like Paul’s response in Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height – 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all the generations, of the age of the ages. Amen.
What your conclusion must be, is, “rightly divide the truth.”
We can see that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.
But all Scripture is not written to us for our salvation and security.
When we try to mix Scripture from different dispensations we will end up with confusion, delusion, frustration, then anger and even disbelief.
According to 2 Tim 2:15, it says, “Be diligent to present [yourselves] approved to God, workers who do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
The gospel for us, today given to Paul by the resurrected and ascended Lord, Jesus Christ, tells us that we have salvation as soon as we believe.
Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Our salvation is secure. In contrast to other dispensations, our salvation is both sealed and guaranteed.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
We members of the Body of Christ have our security.
Once we believe, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.
This body of Christ was elected to be holy and blameless before the earth was created.
Eph 1:4,5,11 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. Our adoption as sons who cannot be disinherited, according the metaphor of adoption that Paul uses, is also secure because it has been predestined. God will make sure it happens.
Our response to this wonderful spiritual blessing of security should be like Paul’s response in Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height – 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all the generations, of the age of the ages. Amen.
What your conclusion must be, is, “rightly divide the truth.”
We can see that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.
But all Scripture is not written to us for our salvation and security.
When we try to mix Scripture from different dispensations we will end up with confusion, delusion, frustration, then anger and even disbelief.
According to 2 Tim 2:15, it says, “Be diligent to present [yourselves] approved to God, workers who do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Thanks Bob, and for you folks that really want to jump into the details regarding the topic that Bob is addressing I want to encourage you to buy Bob Hills book The Big Difference.
elected4ever
New member
The doctrine of two gospels is heresy Plan and simple. Paul taught grace through faith, Peter taught grace through faith, John taught grace through faith. Abraham taught grace through faith. Moses taught grace through faith. The doctrine of two gospels is but another example of the Open theist well reasoned lies passed on as truth.Knight said:
elected4ever
New member
And also Jesus tought grace through faith too. There simply never been tought a differant gospel.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 ¶For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 ¶For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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