ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

So then you hold Christ was only able to live without sin because of his divinity?

This is the theological issue known as the impeccability of Christ. Jesus was God-Man. We do not know exhaustively how His divine and human natures interacted. Hebrews does say He was tempted, yet without sin. If it was physically impossible for Him to sin, the temptation would be illusory. Since He was the Son of Man, He had will, intellect, and emotions. It seems to me that He could sin, but He did not. The end result is the same. He was sinless and perfect. He lived up to the light He had and purposed to do the Father's will. If He was not incarnate and subject to temptation, He could not sin. In the body, He could have sinned, but simply chose not to in the power of the Spirit. He fully obeyed the Father and His Law in thought, motive, word, deed. He alone is the sinless Son of God. It was not just a matter that He was born of the Spirit (virgin conception). His mother was human. This is another argument against 'original sin'. Logically, Jesus would have a so-called sin nature being born of a woman. We are not born with a sin nature either, but we all do sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Sin is volitional. Jesus had libertarian free will. He could have sinned, but He did not sin!

http://members.citynet.net/morton/sinned.htm

(re: impeccability of Christ...I do not know about this author..looks like he is KJV only, unfortunately)

 

[godrulz]

Yes, that is exactly what godrulz and Jerry believe. It is the fruit of both their and Open Theism doctrine. It certainly is possible for a man not to sin under their doctrine. Man is born without sin and has the potential to lead a sinless life. To take it a step further they also believe that God does not know, or want to know?!? :chuckle: , whether any more people will sin. You see, He leaves it up to their "free will."

So Christ is just a "contingency plan" in case anyone else sins. Ohh...the beautiful consistency of Open Theism!!! :thumb:

Nice straw man caricature. Perhaps you should not put words in our mouth.

 

[godrulz]

So why then is Christ the only man in history to pull it off? Was Christ able to die for our sins because he was sinless or because he was God? If God created us as we are and our inclination to sin isnt a result of the fall then did God create us with an inclination to sin. And dont say we dont have an inclination to sin...history has definately proven that.

God created Lucifer and Adam perfect. We have an inclination/propensity to sin due to physical depravity. This does not mean there is something causative back of the will that we cannot help but sin. If you must insist on an Adamic nature, then man, not God created it. We, not God, are responsible for sin and evil (ignore the hyper-Calvinists that make God responsible for heinous evil through decrees, contrary to His revealed character and Word).

 

[justchristian]

God created Lucifer and Adam perfect. We have an inclination/propensity to sin due to physical depravity

And Christ (created perfect). So the rest of us are created imperfect from the fall? how does this physical depravity relate to our inclination to sin? I guess I am curious to what physical depravity is?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you think it possible for any man besides Christ to live a life without sinning?

Paul sure thought that man has the "ability" to live a life without sinning or else he would not have written the following:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life"(Ro.2:5/7).

Paul is saying that if a man,from cradle to grave,continues in well doing then he will receive eternal life.

He obviously would not have written such a thing if he believed that man did not have the "ability" to live a life of continuous well doing.

He does say that by this way that none are righteous,and that is because all men sin and do not continue in well doing.But that does not mean that man does not have the ability.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[godrulz]

And Christ (created perfect). So the rest of us are created imperfect from the fall? how does this physical depravity relate to our inclination to sin? I guess I am curious to what physical depravity is?

Physical depravity includes the fact they we all die as a consequence of Adam's fall. Women have pain in childbirth. Weeds grow, etc. Adam was intended to live forever on paradise earth. We also seem to have a bent to satisfy our bodily desires above living for God supremely. This does not mean there is a causative Adamic nature back of our wills.

This contrasts with moral depravity that is volitional. Free moral agency abused with wrong, sinful choices, leads to habits, character, nature. Physical depravity makes it difficult to live for God, but not absolutely impossible. We are tainted, but not destroyed. Total depravity does not mean total inability. God commands us to repent and obey. This would be unreasonable if it was absolutely impossible to respond to His conviction and truth.

Christ is unique in that He had a virgin conception. He did not have a biological Father. The Holy Spirit conceived through sinful Mary. He alone is perfect, but His birth was not morally totally different from us. He would also have eventually died of old age apart from the mission of the cross. He was born of the seed of a woman. He did not have moral depravity. We were not born with moral depravity, but developed this through sinful choices.

We are somewhat speculating here. The key is to see that He alone was sinless to the end. He shared the suffering and limitations of humanity without yielding to temptation. We all sin by choice sooner or later. He never sinned, though He theoretically could have.

 

[justchristian]

So why do you think he didnt and we do?

 

[Agape4Robin]

So why do you think he didnt and we do?

because He is part of the Trinity? Did I say that right?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Godrulz: Babies are innocent, starting with a clean slate, except some of the consequences of the Fall. I would not say they are righteous.

Then righteousness is not required, for heaven? And how may we interpret these verses, then?

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

They are saved based on their non-rejection of Christ.

They have no choice whatsoever in the matter? No free will? They are elect, without any chance of being lost, and by God's decision?

Babies are not immortal because we are all under the consequences of the Fall relating to PHYSICAL depravity. Even Christians die, though they are in Christ. Physical death is passed to the whole human race.

"Because all have sinned," though, says Paul (Rom. 5:12), not because Adam sinned.

If we were born unable to help it, God would get the blame for making us that way.

Unless he also bears the sin of the world.

Paul sure thought that man has the "ability" to live a life without sinning or else he would not have written the following:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life"(Ro.2:5/7).

Paul is saying that if a man,from cradle to grave, continues in well doing then he will receive eternal life.

This is actually what is called Pelagianism, which says that righteousness could have come through keeping the law:

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for no purpose.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

So why do you think he didnt and we do?

He was in intimate relationship with the Father from an early age. He knew who He was and chose to do the will of the Father implicitly. Most of us do not even know about God from an early age. We are used to being the center of the universe as King Baby. When moral light and capacity dawns, we become guilty for continuing in the Kingdom of Self rather than bowing our knee to King Jesus.

 

[justchristian]

Interesting wording but I think I agree wtih you. We have a "divine depravity" it is with God we live without sin. Without God we are doomed to be slaves to it.

 

[godrulz]

Hi everyone,


Then righteousness is not required, for heaven? And how may we interpret these verses, then?

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.


They have no choice whatsoever in the matter? No free will? They are elect, without any chance of being lost, and by God's decision?


"Because all have sinned," though, says Paul (Rom. 5:12), not because Adam sinned.


Unless he also bears the sin of the world.


This is actually what is called Pelagianism, which says that righteousness could have come through keeping the law:

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for no purpose.

Blessings,
Lee

A one day old baby does not have the mental and moral capacity to make choices. They cannot receive or reject Christ before they can even say "Daddy". God saves them because they are not culpable since they do not have the capacity to reject Christ yet. Righteousness is not a 'thing' that one is born with or without.

Ps. 51; 58 and other places is an Hebraism, an idiom. Can a one day old baby tell lies? From as long as the Psalmist can remember, he was a sinner. Another verse talks about relying on God from birth. Does this mean a 1 minute old baby prays and reads the Bible? Psalms is not usually didactic and often has figurative language. I would not proof text from an ancient idiom to make a big doctrine such as Augustinian original sin.

Elect vs non-elect/reprobation is Calvinistic, not biblical.

We cannot be saved by keeping the Law. Pelagius was misunderstood. A moderate view, semi-Pelagianism, avoids the extremes of hyper-Calvinism and Pelagianism (e.g. Charles G. Finney).

 

[godrulz]

Interesting wording but I think I agree wtih you. We have a "divine depravity" it is with God we live without sin. Without God we are doomed to be slaves to it.

As we continue to live for Self/flesh supremely and in our subordinate choices, we form patterns of bondage. Only Christ can set us free from sin and Self. Now we are to love God supremely and others equal to ourselves as He lives in us.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Because all have sinned," though, says Paul (Rom. 5:12), not because Adam sinned.

Lee,

Christ is not speaking of "physical" death at Romans 5:12.Men do not die physically because they sin.Since man has been denied to eat of the "tree of life" all men die.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"(Heb.9:27).

All men die spiritually when they sin.They are not born spiritually dead.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[godrulz]

Lee,

Christ is not speaking of "physical" death at Romans 5:12.Men do not die physically because they sin.Since man has been denied to eat of the "tree of life" all men die.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"(Heb.9:27).

All men die spiritually when they sin.They are not born spiritually dead.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

I do not have the context in front of me, but I am thinking it refers to physical death when relating to Adam and us. There is physical, spiritual, and eternal death. The context determines which is being referred to. Likewise, Hebrews 9 seems to be talking about physical death and no second chance (like reincarnation) to repent and receive Christ.

 

[justchristian]

Now we are to love God supremely and others equal to ourselves as He lives in us.

Equal to ourselves?

 

[godrulz]

Equal to ourselves

Equal to ourselves

The Great Commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (= love God supremely above all else). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbour as yourself (equal to yourself...you meet your own needs; love meets other's needs just as much as their own needs; we do not love others or ourselves supremely above God). (Mt. 22:34 ff.; Mk. 12).

This sums up the Decalogue (10 commandments).

Conversely, the greatest sin is to NOT love God with all our heart and others just as we love ourselves (meet needs; seek highest good of another as we seek our highest good).

Eph. 5:28 illustrates the same principle where husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies....no one hates their body, but feeds and cares for it...we should love others equal to that, but put God above all other loves and needs.

 

[justchristian]

ohhh i read that wrong in my head i understood:

Now we are to love God, and others (who are) equal to ourselves.

sorry my bad

 

[godrulz]

ohhh i read that wrong in my head i understood:

Now we are to love God, and others (who are) equal to ourselves.

sorry my bad

I am not suggesting the Greatest Commandment is to love others (who happen to be equal to us). I am suggesting it means to love God above all else, and to love other people in the same way (equal) as we love our own selves. It is also true, but incidental, that the one's we love are equal in their humanity (neither Jew nor Gentile, nor male/female, but one in Christ...+ we are to love our enemies no less than we love ourselves).

 

[justchristian]

your totally right and I totally agree