lee_merrill said:
And the way to do this would be to address my questions here, I would say.
So then God does not ever stop a rape or a murder?
Actually, Elihu clearly means (as in the verses quoted) that God struck Job.
So then tell me how to interpret "the Lord took away" and "has the Lord not caused it?"
However, you are the one saying "the Lord took away" is a figure of speech.
I think we still need for you to tell me what the meaning of "all the trouble the Lord brought upon him" is, it can't be a meaningless phrase, I have given you my reading, now what do you hold that this phrase means?
How about if you don't let the verse "Satan went out and afflicted Job" stand out? And then we have my conclusion?
But no, we have to understand the verses, and not say that an overall meaning erases all other meanings in a passage, or a book. And the verses I refer to are quite clear, there really is no alternative interpretation.
Job 42:11 They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him…
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.
Amos 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?
Isaiah 10:16-17 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it, or the saw boast against him who uses it? As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up, or a club brandish him who is not wood! Isaiah Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors...
Jeremiah 30:14-15 All your allies have forgotten you; they care nothing for you. I have struck you as an enemy would and punished you as would the cruel, because your guilt is so great and your sins so many. Why do you cry out over your wound, your pain that has no cure? Because of your great guilt and many sins I have done these things to you.
Blessings,
Lee
Hi Lee,
These verses show Elihu telling Job God did not bring the trouble upon Job:
Job 33:29-30 God does all these things to a man-- twice, even three times--to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him.
Job 36:8-10 But if men are bound in chains, held fast by cords of affliction, he tells them what they have done-- that they have sinned arrogantly. He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.
Job 36:17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment and justice have taken hold of you.
To paraphrase :
God is just. He uses trouble to bring a man back from sin, when he sins. He holds them to their sins. God does not bring these upon righteous. Job said God did. I say he wouldn't, but because Job said that he does, he had now sinned and had taken on the judgement due those who had sinned.
It is clear, Lee, when you read it all together, and not just take it a verse at a time out of context.
Do I have to post the entire passage to get you to read it?
Job 32
1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. 3 Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
So to comentate, and point out how you are mistaken.... Elihu patiently waited to talk, listening to Job. He was angry because Job was justifying himself and condeming for causing the trouble.. So Elihu says:
Job 33
4 The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5 If you can answer me,
Set your words in order before me;
Take your stand.
6 Truly I am as your spokesman[a] before God;
I also have been formed out of clay.
7 Surely no fear of me will terrify you,
Nor will my hand be heavy on you.
8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing,
And I have heard the sound of your words, saying,
9 ‘I am pure, without transgression;
I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.
10 Yet He finds occasions against me,
He counts me as His enemy;
11 He puts my feet in the stocks,
He watches all my paths.’
12
“Look, in this you are not righteous.
I will answer you,
For God is greater than man.
I HOPE by now you can clearly see the injustice you place on God, lee, by quoting verses out of context. Note the bolded words. Elihu is saying "Job, you are saying I am innocent, yet God brings disaster on me! Listen to your unrighteous tongue! God isn't like man to do that to someone."
Don't you see that lee?
He continues to rebuke Job:
22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit,
And his life to the executioners.
23 “If there is a messenger for him,
A mediator, one among a thousand,
To show man His uprightness,
24 Then He is gracious to him, and says,
‘ Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
I have found a ransom’;
.....
27 Then he looks at men and says,
‘I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his[] soul from going down to the Pit,
And his[c] life shall see the light.
29 “ Behold, God works all these things,
Twice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
Now Elihu is showing Gods goodness! How he saves a man from the pit once he repents, he does this all the time! And, Lee, sadly you take this beautiful passage of mercy and TWIST IT with out even taking the time to read what is around it.
Your webpage is full of this.
Look at what the verses say. It says in paraphrase:"When man is dying, If there are any justifications for him or repentings, then he will not go to hell, but heaven and be restored as a young child. He will proclaim God's goodness and that sin did not profit him. God does this ALL the time."
Lee, it makes me so sad for you, that you do not understand the verses you read, you do not even bother to read the context before you post them on here.
Elihu continues:
Job 34
4 Let us choose justice for ourselves;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 “
For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my justice;
6 Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’
7 What man is like Job,
Who drinks scorn like water,
8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?
9
For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
That he should delight in God.’
Job was out of his mind in sorrow, Lee! He was saying terrible things about God, and you agree with them, you agree that God did this to him? Listen to Elihu:
0 “ Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
.....
16 “If you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words:
17 Should one who hates justice govern?
Will you condemn Him who is most just?
........
34 “Men of understanding say to me,
Wise men who listen to me:
35 ‘Job speaks without knowledge,
His words are without wisdom.’
36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost,
Because his answers are like those of wicked men!
37 For he adds rebellion to his sin;
He claps his hands among us,
And multiplies his words against God.”
Job was accusing God wrongly! Don't you agree with Elihu? You hold so highly that Job didn't sin in the words he said. Neither did Elihu! He was the only one in conversation who didn't have to repent at the end of the book.
Job 35
3 For you say,
‘What advantage will it be to You?
What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?’
4 “I will answer you,
And your companions with you.
....
8 Your wickedness affects a man such as you,
And your righteousness a son of man
....
13 Surely God will not listen to empty talk,
Nor will the Almighty regard it.
14 Although you say you do not see Him,
Yet justice is before Him, and you must wait for Him.
15 And now, because He has not punished in His anger,
Nor taken much notice of folly,
16 Therefore Job opens his mouth in vain;
He multiplies words without knowledge.
Elihu accuses Job of speaking things he does not understand. Job had accused God of bringing injustice upon him as though he sinned, but Job did not sin. Elihu responded your sin and your righetousness do not affect God, yet your accusations are nothing to him. You speak falsely.
Job 36
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve Him,
They shall spend their days in prosperity,
And their years in pleasures.
12 But if they do not obey,
They shall perish by the sword,
And they shall die without knowledge.[a]
13 “But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath;
They do not cry for help when He binds them.
14 They die in youth,
And their life ends among the perverted persons.[]
15 He delivers the poor in their affliction,
And opens their ears in oppression.
16 “ Indeed He would have brought you out of dire distress,
Into a broad place where there is no restraint;
And what is set on your table would be full of richness.
17 But you are filled with the judgment due the wicked;
Judgment and justice take hold of you.
18 Because there is wrath, beware lest He take you away with one blow;
For a large ransom would not help you avoid it.
19 Will your riches,
Or all the mighty forces,
Keep you from distress?
Elihu tells Job that God gives according to the works. And had Job just shut up he would have given him a table full of riches, but now that Job had spoken as he had, he is due the judgement of wicked people! God brings good to those who do Good, and bad to those who do bad.
Job WAS innocent! Remember?
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
Yet poor Job got the beating down of a lifetime. According to this verse, would God repay the innocent with wickedness?
Job 34
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
Lee, read the Bible, stop quoting small parts.
atrol: ) to prove his identity as the Son of God by turning stones into bread in order to satisfy his hunger. At that point Jesus quoted Deut. 8:3
