Hi everyone,
themuzicman said:
Christ was truly forsaken by God on the cross when God let Him die. It is a relational forsaking related to a physical death. There is no spiritual death involved.
Yes, yes indeed.
Hebrews 7:16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
Patman said:
Lee, Job didn't know he was mistaken. You have no excuse.
Yet Scripture says Job did not sin in what he said, and what he said is just what you hold cannot happen, what he said is what you call blasphemous when I say it. The Bible says that saying this is not a sin.
Patman: No matter how many verses I show you that prove WHO did the bad things to Job, you will always blame God.
God_Is_Truth: Did God kill Job's family? Did God wipe out his animals? Did God take away his health? The book of Job declares that it was Satan and not God who did all these things.
Yet Scripture tells us directly who was the cause of what happened to Job:
Job 42:11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all
the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.
Patman said:
Lee, you constantly say God authors sin.
But how then did God plan the cross, where he knew people would sin, and bring it about, without being an agent in that sinning happening?
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days…
God_Is_Truth said:
The cross isn't mentioned there Lee! There is suffering, a guilt offering, being crushed etc. but no specific mention of a cross! There are numerous other ways that verse could have been brought to fulfillment.
Possibly without the cross, but not without man sinning in crushing the Son of God, in causing him suffering, in wounding him.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.
Mark 9:13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.
Matthew 17:12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.
These would all involve sin, the betrayal, which was predicted, the sufferings of John the Baptist, and the following sufferings of Jesus, all written, and in the plan of God, so through his wounds, we can be healed.
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
This also was sinful for men to do.
God_Is_Truth said:
Something can be wrong and yet not be a sin. Job didn't sin, yet he was wrong. They are compatible statements. … It is only when we speak what we know is wrong as a truth, and what we know is a truth as a wrong, do we sin.
Yet if saying God caused sin when he doesn’t cause it is wrong, then what Job said was blasphemy (as Patman indeed is correctly insisting), and though it may have been unwitting blasphemy on Job’s part, yet making a blasphemous statement is a sin.
2 Peter 2:12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.
Let us note that Peter does not then say “But that’s all right, because they are unaware of this.”
1 Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
And we may note here that mercy implies a sin, that must be forgiven.
These verses also have not been answered:
Romans 5:20-21 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Clearly God is the cause here, and these resulting sinful actions are in his plan. I am not perhaps surprised that the answer has been to skip these verses, for they are indeed clear, and unanswerable.
Blessings,
Lee