Knight said:
We have gone over this. And we will keep going over it so that your position is exposed over and over and over and over again as being contradictory.
Based on what you've written in your post, you don't understand my position enough to expose anything contradictory.
Knight said:
According to you, God's prescriptive will, and our will, all follow God's decretive will without any variation. Therefore there really is no will outside of God's decretive will.
See what I mean? I explained this before; I'll explain it again. God's
decretive will is to God's
prescriptive will as a
plan is to a
rule. They're two different categories. The decretive will encompasses the existence and expression of the prescriptive, but they are not the same. The prescriptive regards God's commands. The decretive regards God's plans. Please try to get this. Imperatives (i.e. commands) are viewed in the Greek (and English as well) as being the grammatical mood furthest removed from reality (see Greek Grammars by Dana & Mantey or A.T. Roberston or others). The imperative mood (which corresponds to God's prescriptive will) is not viewed as representing actuality (i.e. reality) as is the indicative mood (which corresponds to God's decretive will). They are different categories.
Knight said:
So when bad things happen against God's prescriptive will, it is God Himself that is willing against His own prescriptive will via His decretive will. And that (in a nut-shell) is the inconsistency in your view.
There's nothing inconsistent or contradictory about God prohibiting something and decreeing that it happen. Throughout scripture we are shown examples in which God has decreed that which is contrary to His prescriptions for His own good reasons and purposes. For example, God decreed that Joseph's brothers would hate him without justification (Ge 37:4), even though His prescriptive will forbids hatred without cause. God decreed that they conspire to betray him and sell him to the Ishmeelites (Ge 37:27), which is tantamount to kidnapping, even though God forbids kidnapping. God decreed that Joseph would be sold by the Ishmeelites as a chattel slave to Egypt, even though God's prescriptive will forbids chattel slavery. God decreed that Joseph's brothers would deceive Jacob into thinking Joseph was killed and send him into deep mourning (Ge 37:31-35), even though God's prescriptive will forbids lying without justification.
We know this was all meticulously decreed by God because, among myriad other reasons, He says so. Moreover, the reason
why He decreed the evil was to bring about good. The scripture reveals that the famine in the Land (Ge 45:6) was authored by God (Ps 105:16). We know that it wasn't really Joseph's brothers who sent him to Egypt, but God Himself, having decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers, contrary to His own prescriptive will: Ge 45:8 So now
it was not you that sent me hither,
but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Thus, we see God's decretive will (unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.) are contrary to His prescriptive will (prohibitions against unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.). By understanding God's meticulous control and the fact that everything God decrees, good and evil (Job 2:10) are for God's own good purposes, Joseph could duly and confidently say: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20).
God's decrees constitute the precise details of planned events, actions and outcomes. They are not merely "guides" or "boundaries." When the Scriptures say "As it is written," it refers to exhaustive and meticulous detail, perfectly coordinated, chronologically and precisely, something no mere "guideline" or "boundary" could do.
God's law, in every dispensation, comprises His prescriptive will. Paul tells the Romans to pay their taxes (Ro 13:6). This is God prescribed will. There may have been those who were resisting the government (Ro 13:2), and Paul told them that this is tantamount to resisting the ordinance (prescribed will) of God. Their resistance was according to God's decreed will. The command expressed God's prescribed will. God had good reasons for decreeing their resistance, not the least of which is giving Paul a real-life case to address in his epistle, and by which to convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself.
In Deu 29, Moses informs Israel that God had not given them a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear until that very day. All the great and wonderful things God had done for them were not fully perceived because of the blindness that God decreed for them. In that day, Israel stood before God as a nation for the purpose of drafting a covenant between them, as the result of now seeing all these things God had done for them. As it is in the case of human covenants, included in the oath are the attending curses that will come to pass should one of the parties fail to uphold his part of the agreement. In the case of divine covenants, such curses only apply to the human side of the agreement, not the divine side. This speaks to God's immutable essence. He cannot fail to uphold His end of a covenant. That is never in question. Always in question is man's side of the vow. And this Moses addresses in great detail.
He has recounted for Israel all God has done for them. All Israel knows the gospel promise God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning their promised Land and future glory. But then Moses proceeds to declare that Israel will indeed turn its heart away from God, and horrific curses will indeed befall them. God has decreed it, and it will come to pass. Moses writes:
22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it; 23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath: 24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: 28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
Moses then shifts his description of the future God has revealed to him to address the question on the mind of every thoughtful Jew within earshot: "But what about the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning our nation? What about the gospel of our kingdom? Why has God decreed that all this horrific and terrifying disease and destruction will happen to His chosen nation?"
Moses writes: 29 The
secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever,
that we may do all the words of this law.
In other words, God's prescriptions are clear. Obey them. The details of God's decrees are secret and belong to the Lord, comprising the reasons why God would decree such evil and calamity for Israel. Obey God's prescriptions; don't try to figure out His decrees.
Overall, Israel can know that God decrees evil for His good purposes, but the details thereof and the specific reasons for them are secret to God.
Moses then proceeds to describe their great and glorious future that God has decreed for the nation that will inexorably come to pass:
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Moses sets before all Israel their future as a nation (even to those who are not present, Deu 29:14,15) . It's going to happen just as he describes it. God has decreed it for the nation. But now, each individual Jew must consider God's prescriptions [note the shift in pronoun from plural to singular]:
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you [all Israel], that I have set before you [all Israel] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou [individual Jew] and thy seed may live: 20 That thou [individual Jew] mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou [individual Jew] mayest obey his voice, and that thou [individual Jew]mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou [individual Jew] mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Thus we see another example of how God's decretive will (Israel's idolatry, captivity and eventual glory) is contrary to God's prescriptive will (His commands to Israel to turn from idolatry and to keep their covenant). The Bible is chock-full of these.
Knight said:
Jim, you agreed that God does not make marred vessels. (of course you only agree with because it's in the Bible. Your theology clearly teaches otherwise).
I did not. You asked, "Jim, tell us which of the following two options is true according to the Bible..." The one I chose was the most biblical. The one I didn't choose was inaccurate and riddled with Open View assumptions.
Knight said:
In reality God takes marred vessels and has the prerogative to re-make them into something good. (that is the clear teaching in the Bible).
No, the clear teaching of the Bible is that God forms pots of honor and pots of dishonor. Anyone who understands pottery knows that pots don't mar themselves, and pots don't talk back to their makers. The prophets use the metaphor because it demonstrates how ludicrous it is for finite man to talk back to the infinite God.
Knight said:
God DOES NOT intentionally mar vessels just so that He can later make Himself look "good", like an abusive parent that beats their child and then later buys them a toy to make themselves look "good".
This is your humanism talking, Eric. God has every prerogative to raise up Pharaoh (a pot formed by God for dishonor) just so He can demonstrate His goodness, proclaim His Word and bless His people (Ro 9:17).
Knight said:
You stated on this thread that God is NOT responsible for our salvation.
If I said... "Jim Hilston says that God is NOT responsible for our salvation." would you find that libelous?
As in all cases of libel, it depends on the context and reasoning behind the statement. Why would you even
want to say that?
All according to God's decrees, for His own good purposes (but not necessarily according to God's prescriptions) for which He answers to no one, of course.
Jim