ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Lighthouse]

Chris have you read Battle Royale X?

When authorities eventually pronounce Calvinism murdered, TheologyOnline will be the scene of the crime.

:chuckle:

 

[Yorzhik]

Why is knowledge the same as action in the open view? ...

Rob

Because it is. There are 2 reasons. First; knowledge of something without doing something makes one responsible. Case in point, when Settled View God wants all people to be saved, but He only saves a few, He is actively damning the rest. Or as my dad would put it, "if you don't eat the leftovers you'll cause them to rot." BTW, that is a case where we live our lives as if God does not know the future exhaustively, even though my dad is Settled View. Second; if a being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you what was going to happen. Let's give this telling a random label like... I don't know... how about "prophecy"? And you decided to make these things not happen they way they were told, could you do it? Let us even say that the being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you anything about any even at any time.

 

[patman]

Why is knowledge the same as action in the open view? God knowing of the bite doesn't mean God did the biting. God is responsible for His own actions just as you are. God's intention was to achieve a purpose beyond the biting.

Rob

The propose meaning "the killing?" Lets face it billions are going to hell, few go to heaven. This is God's great purpose according to you?

The action is God 'creating earth' in order to achieve a purpose. The way he created it and the knowledge of the way it would work make him responsible for some things. So what is he responsible for?

Is he responsible for sin? No. But only because he didn't include sin as a part of his plan nor did he foresee it happening as it did. This is the only way to prove God is truly separated from sin....

Yet the Settled View Again and again claims he created us to be sinners in order to make us saints. Wow that is smart. Why not just leave us as saints as we were? If God could foresee the future, why not just create it in such a way hat we didn't sin? Somehow you think he can do this and freewill still be possible..

 

[Clete]

Rob,

What in your view would be the consequences if God did not allow people to do evil?

I mean, just forget about forknowledge and predestination for the time being and lets look at this issue of God allowing evil for a bit. What if God did not allow evil? Would it be possible to be morally good?

 

[Hilston]

To cfisher:

If you're interested in a critique of BRX, much of which has not been answered by Open Theists, here's a link: Critique of Battle Royale X.

7-stick pack,
Jim

 

[bachartsayid2]

Originally Posted by Knight: "God is a good parent, a loving parent, that would never intentionally hurt us just so He could look like "the hero" when He later buys us a toy."

So Knight, 20 plus years ago when my wife’s 1st pregnancy resulted in miscarried twins God did not intentionally hurt us? When she was spotting during her 2nd pregnancy and eventually miscarried that child as well did your god intend or allow that?, Was God distracted when I cried and wailed for Him to save both those pregnancies? How about less than a year later when my wife was 3 months pregnant, this being the third time, having previously conceived three children without having birthed one child? Was the midnight phone call we received at that time also an announcement of events unintended by your god? This phone call that announced to us that her parents, her nine year old brother, her great grandmother and the foster child they cared for had all just died when their house burned to the ground? Was your “good parent” god unable or unwilling, despite all his love and parental concern, to stop these events? Or is he only able to bring about good from them after they happen because he is somehow less powerful/able prior to their occurance? I must say Knight these events were very hurtful. Who if anyone intended this hurt?

You are telling me that you want me to trust a god that you say loved us enough to die for us, is powerful enough to pay the price for every sin ever commited but was somehow unwilling or unable to protect us and the 8 living beings that died (in less than 2 yrs.) from these devastating events? The god you offer Knight either loved us and choose to stand idly by while we suffered or was not powerful enough to stop these events. Knight, the god you and other Open Theists offer let us down miserably because my wife and I were hurt terribly at that time. You say your god did not ordain evil for his ultimate good purposes? If that is true then why didn’t your “loving parent” god just stop it from happening to those he loved? Or didn’t he love us then?

Knight, I will not choose or acknowledge your god. I will however, acknowledge that I have been chosen by the all powerful, all knowing, all controlling Rock God of Scripture who works all things according to His unshakable will and meticulous plan for the good of His Elect/Chosen Ones. THIS truth is comforting. I will acknowledge and profess my trust in Him (by His Grace and will) even if I cannot see now in my limited human form just what His full purpose was when He ordained and set into motion the real life events I described above.

Jeff Mathis

 

[Hilston]

Hi Yorzhik,

Thanks for your post.

The writer of the book writes that the characters of the book hold the writer responsible.

It's not possible. Holding someone responsible requires holding authority and power over the one being held responsible. It is logically impossible for a character to hold the writer responsible. It is even more irrational to suppose that finite man could hold the infinite God responsible for anything.

First, of course they are different scenarios. However, they are identical analogies. The robot can be held accountable if that is what the programmer decides.

A robot is no more a moral agent than a gun or a knife or a rock. How is it at all germane to this discussion?

And, in the end, your son can write the story that the evil people that the author earlier in the book wrote they did everything to warrant hell go to heaven, and the hero that he wrote earlier in the book did everything right to go to heaven is tortured forever in hell?

Please explain this sentence. I could try answering what you appear to be saying, but I'd rather have a clearer understanding before taking a stab at your question.

Thanks again for the reply. Have you been eating your "B" foods (Broccoli, beets, brusselsprouts, barley)?

Clinging to the Rock,
Jim

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Each person is fully God. Therefore, if one of them becomes man, it is accurate to say that God became a man. The other two persons remain fully God, yet they are not man.

But God is not just Jesus, that is the point here, though Jesus is God, by essence and nature, God is not Jesus, this is an important point.

The Father and Holy Spirit did not incarnate/take on flesh. Only the Word, Jesus, became flesh. He is God. The triune God did not become a man, but the One who became a man was fully God (do not confuse the triune essence of God with the personal distinctions in the Godhead...).

Yes, exactly.

Who knows a person's heart better: men or God? God knew what was in Saul's heart and it was enough for him to expect good things.

So then Saul’s friends knew better than God did? And how then is he good at predictions through character solidification? It seems he is not very reliable in this, actually.

Chris: But also, if God says he regretted his decision but didn't, that also makes him a liar.

God_Is_Truth: So God lied?

1 Sam 15:10:11 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, "I regret that I have made Saul king…

Well, no…

1 Samuel 15:10-11 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I am grieved that I have made Saul king…” (NIV)

So there are other meanings that fit with this word, meanings that translators consider reasonable, which fit with God not changing his mind, and not regretting he made a decision.

It became a means to that end, yes. But we have no reason to think God works in this same manner.

I would say what Paul could do, the Lord could do, especially if Paul did not regret the final result!

Lee: This doesn't work, though, Rob, for I don't see how stopping Hitler would have impinged on people's free will in some inherent and unpreventable way. For what about the free will of all the Jewish people who died? I don't see how Hitler's free will must be preserved, and the Jewish people's free will need not be...

Rob: It absolutely works! God allows(not stopping) or God doesn't allow(stopping) for His own purposes.

But this explanation seems not to explain, it seems you are pleading mystery here, but then that is not going to be a reason to accept this view, I would say.

Rob: Knight's question presents that God coerced through planning(foreordination) the torture and murder of the Jewish people …

I would not put it in these terms, certainly, but I really don’t see an essential difference in terms of responsibility between planning and allowing, especially once the events are in progress, and you could stop them at any time.

What Knight is forgetting is that simple foreknowledge, foreordination, and allowing produce the same effect for the same reason.

Yes, I agree, precisely.

… and, we believe that He went forward with His plans anyway deciding to 'allow' the evils to occur to achieve His own good purpose.

I would state this as part of God’s plan, though.

Amos 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?

And he also bears that pain…

Jeremiah 8:21 Since my people are crushed, I am crushed…

"Why would it matter WHEN God allowed the evil to occur for His own good purposes?" is my question. Logically, why does it matter in the least? It seems to for them.

Very well stated here.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Bob Hill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Chris,

Are you still a strong Open Theist?

Bob


I am doing my honors thesis on that topic, and you should see the quotes I have from Plato, Plotinus, Augustine, Calvin, and even Norman Giesler. I've been doing a lot of work expossing the Paganism of Calvinism.
In answer to your question, I'd say yes. No Calvinist has even attempted to refute my sophmore thesis yet. I think they are afraid.

Chris, could you send me a copy of each thesis? If so, biblicalanswers.com

In Christ,
Bob

 

[patman]

Originally Posted by Knight: "God is a good parent, a loving parent, that would never intentionally hurt us just so He could look like "the hero" when He later buys us a toy."

So Knight, 20 plus years ago when my wife’s 1st pregnancy resulted in miscarried twins God did not intentionally hurt us? When she was spotting during her 2nd pregnancy and eventually miscarried that child as well did your god intend or allow that?, Was God distracted when I cried and wailed for Him to save both those pregnancies? How about less than a year later when my wife was 3 months pregnant, this being the third time, having previously conceived three children without having birthed one child? Was the midnight phone call we received at that time also an announcement of events unintended by your god? This phone call that announced to us that her parents, her nine year old brother, her great grandmother and the foster child they cared for had all just died when their house burned to the ground? Was your “good parent” god unable or unwilling, despite all his love and parental concern, to stop these events? Or is he only able to bring about good from them after they happen because he is somehow less powerful/able prior to their occurance? I must say Knight these events were very hurtful. Who if anyone intended this hurt?

You are telling me that you want me to trust a god that you say loved us enough to die for us, is powerful enough to pay the price for every sin ever commited but was somehow unwilling or unable to protect us and the 8 living beings that died (in less than 2 yrs.) from these devastating events? The god you offer Knight either loved us and choose to stand idly by while we suffered or was not powerful enough to stop these events. Knight, the god you and other Open Theists offer let us down miserably because my wife and I were hurt terribly at that time. You say your god did not ordain evil for his ultimate good purposes? If that is true then why didn’t your “loving parent” god just stop it from happening to those he loved? Or didn’t he love us then?

Knight, I will not choose or acknowledge your god. I will however, acknowledge that I have been chosen by the all powerful, all knowing, all controlling Rock God of Scripture who works all things according to His unshakable will and meticulous plan for the good of His Elect/Chosen Ones. THIS truth is comforting. I will acknowledge and profess my trust in Him (by His Grace and will) even if I cannot see now in my limited human form just what His full purpose was when He ordained and set into motion the real life events I described above.

Jeff Mathis

I am very sorry to hear about those tragic events.

We all have had and seen pretty awful things. When I saw them in my life, my first reaction was "why?" Nothing added up in my mind.

Unlike you, I could not reconcile why a loving God would plan for things to go this way. Many people would tell me "it happened for a reason" and "it is for a greater purpose." And sometimes this is true, but the world as a whole, the immense evil... Why did God take his creation, that he called "very good " and turn it into something that he later was "sorry he created?"

The S.V. find comfort in the control of God. The difference is that the S.V. says God ordains the evil along with the Good. The O.V. say that God creates only good things and Good plans without evil.

The S.V. see power in God ordaining evil. The O.V. see power in resisting the temptation to sin by ordaining evil,

There is no lack of power attributed to God either view. Yet for some reason the S.V. calls evil 'good' when evil causes good. And in the same breath say "Amen" when scripture is read saying 'there is no shadow of evil found in God.' When scripture is read that says "It never entered God's mind to forbid the evil you do because i didn't think you would be doing it," is just a figure of speech,for some reason God never communicates with real words.

Tragic events shape us, no doubt. They drove you to believe that God causes Evil for Good. And you see God as being strong, in control this way because he is plotting all the evil around us.

But it is my belief if God did control everything, there would be no evil in sight. Because nothing is impossible for God, he could actually bring about good with good, and have no need for evil to bring it about. Also, the bible plainly says he hates plotting evil, there is no evil in him, thus if he were utterly controlling all things, he would not go against his characteristics that make him who he is.

As there is evil in the world, and God hates evil and those who plan evil, he is not causing the evil to happen. But he is still there for us. And he will not allow evil to go on forever. He collects your tears and keeps them in his bottle , and they will not be forgot. God is still powerful and can bring about Good without causing the evil things too, for he is God! He created this world and the universe around it, how is he weak?

Not plotting evil makes God one thing. And it is not weak. It is Holy (OK, so he is more than holy, he is righteous, etc., etc. )!

When bad things happen, we can be glad that God didn't cause them because this means he is Holy. And when bad things happen, because we know he is keeping count, and will repay us tears for happiness and joy in heaven. How can he do this? Because he is powerful and strong. Not plotting evil even if it were for some good.

Did you ever ask yourself "Why does God have to use evil to cause good?" Did you never think "God is able to use Good to cause Good, and doesn't need evil?" Isn't it better to use good to do good than evil?

 

[Bob Hill]

bachartsayid2
Dear Jeff,

20 plus years ago when your wife’s 1st pregnancy resulted in miscarried twins and the other problems with each pregnancy happened, God had nothing to do with them either way. In this present time, the Dispensation of Grace, we have no biblical evidence that God is working miracles.

When my wife had a two headed baby die many years ago, we did not hold that against God. However, Satan enjoys seeing us suffer and may be able to cause those things, but mankind has brought much degradation and evil into this world.

What God the Father did, was send His Son to become a man, live a sinless life on this earth for about 30 years, on this Earth, and then willingly die for our sins.

After His resurrection, He ascended to the Father. He wants you and your wife to believe in Him for your own salvation since He died for you.

Bob Hill

 

[God_Is_Truth]

The god you offer Knight either loved us and choose to stand idly by while we suffered or was not powerful enough to stop these events. Knight, the god you and other Open Theists offer let us down miserably because my wife and I were hurt terribly at that time. You say your god did not ordain evil for his ultimate good purposes? If that is true then why didn’t your “loving parent” god just stop it from happening to those he loved? Or didn’t he love us then?

God did not stop what happened from occuring, clearly. The question we must deal with is "why?" And perhaps no answer will ever completely satisfy us in our hearts, there are at least some things we can know that may help.

The first of these is that humanity stands and falls together. That is, though we are individuals we are all part of a greater whole. What I do affects everyone else and what everyone else does affects me to one degree or another. We live in a world that has been corrupted from ages past. We did not choose to be born into this but are here none the less.

The source of many of these evils is people. People are born with the capacity for evil and wicked things. History attests to this in shameful abundance. But the question for us is why? Why does God let people do evil things? Surely he can see them thinking out their plans. Why doesn't he intervene? The answer is love. God is perfect love, through and throught. Don't bail on me yet. Keep reading. I am getting to your specific case. Because He is love He created people to share in that love. Love always looks out for others. Keep reading. God, in His love, created us with freedom. Think about it. What kind of love would be in a marriage where neither person had freedom. Or imagine what a world of robots would look like. That's a world without freedom and love.

Freedom, however, has it's cost. And the cost is that once given, it can't be removed. If you give someone genuine freedom then you cannot take it away just because they use it in a way you don't like. For if you did this, you would be showing that they don't actually have the freedom you said you gave them. They would not really be free to do as they please. But in order to have love, you must have freedom. And so we have a partial answer, though general, to our problem. Many times evil deeds are not prevented because they would involve stripping away freedom.

But, what of your particular case? What freedom would have been taken away? How do we explain this? It is partially what I've explained, but deeper. As I mentioned earlier, we all stand together. So, when Adam fell it introduce a depravity into all of us. And, because it was freedom that brought it in, God cannot stop it otherwise freedom would not really exist and neither would love.

Every evil in this world results from the fall of humanity, our fall. I am not saying it's your and my fault. I am saying that we are born into a world that is messed up because of the cost of freedom and love. The fall of Adam affected all of creation, for he was the head of it. It is because of this that tragedies such as yours have occured and it's because of love that God cannot, directly, intervene.

Knight, I will not choose or acknowledge your god. I will however, acknowledge that I have been chosen by the all powerful, all knowing, all controlling Rock God of Scripture who works all things according to His unshakable will and meticulous plan for the good of His Elect/Chosen Ones. THIS truth is comforting. I will acknowledge and profess my trust in Him (by His Grace and will) even if I cannot see now in my limited human form just what His full purpose was when He ordained and set into motion the real life events I described above.

Jeff Mathis

Jeff,

I understand your wanting to take comfort in God's wisdom and plans and goodness. I can see that you view Him as having grand plans that are for your good. But, I believe you have not thought out your view all the way.

If God indeed works all things according to His will, then all your pain, all your suffering is His fault. He planned, worked it, and brought it to pass. God is indeed to blame by your view for the so called tragedy. Further, if your view is correct, he has also not given you an explanation for why it happened. He has not told you His plan or given you anything to take away from it. Where's the lesson? Where's the purpose? Where is the 'why' ? Your view doesn't have a good one except to proclaim a mysterious hope that somehow God has it working out for good later on. My friend, that is a weak hope. I do not want to crush your hope, but turn it into a stronger and more accurate hope.

The hope of Jesus is that suffering is terrible and not God's will. Jesus went around healing people, cleansing them, raising them and strengthening them. His heart is love and it extends abundantly to everyone. Nowhere is this more clear than on Calvary where He ascribed unsurpassable worth to every individual by dying for them. He loves you with all the love of God. He could not love you more than he does right now.

And our hope should be in Jesus, not the mystery of God. We hope in the revealed, not the unrevealed. Our hope is in Jesus to work in us to make the world better through a new kingdom, not like the kingdoms of the world.

If nothing else, it is better to say "I don't know why God let this happen" than to say "God did this to me for some reason I don't know". It is okay to claim ignorance. Jesus asked us to trust Him, not to have it all figured out. Jesus is the truth and our hope is found in Him. He loved us, declared demons to be at fault for much of the evil in the world but more importantly focused on loving others first. And that is what God does.

I know I have completely answered your "why" question. And part of that is that I can't. I don't know the mind of God but I do know Jesus. I can't tell you for sure why God didn't intervene in your situation. But, I can look at Christ and tell you God's heart and that it's never for evil things to take place.

Greg Boyd has a book out called "Is God to Blame?" that explains more about having a better hope in Christ regarding evil things in this world. You might get a lot from it. It doesn't cost much and it would at least help you think it out more in the biblical fashion.

Remember, our hope is in Christ, the supreme revelation of God, in whom there is no darkness.

God bless,

GIT

 

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Knight: "God is a good parent, a loving parent, that would never intentionally hurt us just so He could look like "the hero" when He later buys us a toy."

So Knight, 20 plus years ago when my wife’s 1st pregnancy resulted in miscarried twins God did not intentionally hurt us? When she was spotting during her 2nd pregnancy and eventually miscarried that child as well did your god intend or allow that?, Was God distracted when I cried and wailed for Him to save both those pregnancies? How about less than a year later when my wife was 3 months pregnant, this being the third time, having previously conceived three children without having birthed one child? Was the midnight phone call we received at that time also an announcement of events unintended by your god?

Jeff Mathis

As the father of a stillborn, I feel your pain, Jeff. My wife still cries every year on that day, even though it was 13 years ago.

However, I think OVT makes people take a look at the real cause of evil and suffering in the world, and it isn't God. It's us.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you or your wife's individual sin caused a miscarraige. I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that the sin of us all, mankind as a whole, is what causes sickness and suffering and evil in the world. Why doesn't God stop it?

Well, hopefully this will help you to understand my view, which I believe to be consistent with OVT.


When God created the world He made a decree about how the world should be. That declaration included morally free and responsible beings called humans. However, because we are morally responsible, we are also due the penalty and consequences of our sins. The penalty of eternal condemnation was taken by Christ, and the cost of redeeming mankind was also taken.

However, while we still live in this world, part of a sinful and fallen race, mankind faces the consequences of our corporate sin, which is frequently visited very acutely upon individuals at various times in various ways. A woman is raped. A child is stillborn. A man is brutally tortured to death. An elderly man dies slowly from emphazima. These are the consequences of our corporate sin.

So, if you want to blame someone for you child's death, blame me. I still sin. And I know that my sin contributes to the suffering and evil in this world.

Why doesn't God act? God declared us to be both morally free and responsible for our sins, so for God to prevent all evil acts and consequences of sin for the purpose of preventing those consequences would result in a violation of His decree.

Yes, God heals from time to time. However, those things happen as a part of another of God's decrees, that being a plan of redemption for creation and mankind. However, these are the exception an not the rule.

So, we ought not seek to be mad at God for our suffering. Mankind causes mankind's suffering. Blame us.

Muz

 

[Hilston]

Knight,

This is from a while ago; I hadn't yet responded to it (back when we were talking about prayer). Here's the original post.

Why would you say "messing with your free will"?

How is "pushing, pulling, influencing, etc." "messing with my free will"?

It's messing with your free will if there are no miracles today.

Why would you say "messing with your free will"?
Take Jonah for instance.... ...

I thought you said you don't believe there are miracles today.

God did some serious "pushing and pulling" right? After all it took Jonah being eaten by a giant fish to get Jonah to do God's will and not Jonah's will.

He was not only eaten; he was killed. Jonah was dead for three days and three nights. I would say that this is not a representative example of how God "pushes, pulls, influences, etc."

When we pray it's not much different, aside from the giant fishes

Can you give an example?

Doesn't the story of Jonah and others like it show that there are wills in play besides God's?

No one is denying the existence and effects of other wills.

... Jonah's will was not to go to Nineveh. God's will was that Jonah go to Nineveh. God "pushed" and "prodded" Jonah to influence His will so that Jonah would do God's will (go to Nineveh).

God had Jonah killed. That's not a good example.

... If God had the only "will" in play why not just decree that Jonah go to Nineveh in the first place?

God decreed all the wills involved in the Nineveh account for His good purposes, not the least of which is the fulfillment of the prophetic typology and the setting up of reprobate Israel's judgement by the elect of Nineveh (Mt 12:39-41).

Why not skip all the giant fish stuff?

Because then Jonah would not have been dead for three days inside the fish.

... Or better yet, why not decree that Nineveh not be an evil city and then Jonah wouldn't have had to go in the first place, ...

Because God decreed the shaming and damning of reprobate Israel, and the due process by which Nineveh will be called to condemn them. All for His good purposes.

... or better yet why not decree that Adam not sin etc., etc., etc. ?

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions like this. Isn't it obvious, at least on my view, that God decreed the Fall and all subsequent events precisely because that's the way God wanted it? It is all part of the plan.

Would you agree that a will can be influenced without being taken away?

Yes, but not without messing around with that will. On your view, there are no miracles, yet you seem to think God still performs Jonah-like miracles.

I had asked: Do you believe He personally soothes, comforts and relieves us of our worry, etc. without [our] knowing that He's doing that? Are you aware of it as it happens? [Emphases and annotation added]

"without knowing that He's doing that?" I don't get that part. Why did you say "without knowing that He's doing that?" Why would God not know what He was doing?

Not God. You. Do you believe He personally soothes, comforts and relieves us of our worry, etc. without OUR knowing that He's doing that?

I had asked: But again, aren't you suggesting that God is interfering with your free will? When you say "If we let Him," what's to stop Him, if you resisted to "let Him," and He saw it as expedient to do so, to use the Holy Spirit Brain Conduit to get you to "let Him"? He could tweak a few neurons and fire off some synapses, and the next thing you know, you're "letting Him," completely unaware that your neurons and synapses have been monkeyed with. In fact, your "letting Him" feels completely free and self-willed. Do you have objections to this scenario?

I think "interfering" and "influencing" are very different. Assuming you mean "interfering" as in "taking away".

Taking away of what? There is no "taking away." He's just changing your state of mind without your awareness. Do you object to that?

I believe that there is no doubt that God likes to influence our will. In fact I think the entire Bible is all about influencing our will. God wants us to conform our will to His will!

But the Bible says the carnal mind is utterly incapable of submitting to God's law (Ro 8:7), and that man's will ultimately has nothing to do with it (Jn 1:12,13 Ro 9:16 Eph 2:4,5 Php 2:13). When we yield to Him, it is because He has pre-ordained the good works we would do (Eph 2:10). It is God who predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Ro 8:29).

But I do not believe He interferes with our will (assuming I understand what you mean by "interfere".)

Perhaps you should define what the word means to you. If you'd rather I offer a definition, that's fine.

For instance...

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Notice God says "lean not on your own understanding", this is a reference to our will when it is NOT in line with His will. "In all your ways acknowledge Him", pray, meditate, allow Him to work with us. "And He shall direct your paths." In other words, if we let Him He will influence our will to more closely align with His will.

How will He influence your will without miraculous intervention?

OK, here is where I am about to ask a question and I can guarantee that it will be taken as if I am trying to be rude or sarcastic or rhetorical with you. Trust me I am not! My following question is meant completely on the "up and up" and strictly because it seems to make me have a hard time understanding your position.

Here goes... (in your view)
Didn't God also decree/ordain the original prayer that He decreed/ordained the answer to?

Yes, of course.

In other words....

It's easy for you to claim that God decreed in advance that He would answer a prayer, but if He also decreed that the prayer be asked in the first place, and all the circumstances that lead up to this prayer, what's the point?

The point is that it gives God pleasure (figuratively speaking) to answer prayer; it's the way He wanted it to be. All things have been created and ordained for Him. To ask "what's the point?" is to presume upon God's singular right to arbitrarily do whatever He wants for His own good reasons.

Isn't prayer an example of God asking us, to ask Him, to alter the course of upcoming events?

On my view, there is no "altering of upcoming events" because it is all decreed. On your view, there is no "altering of upcoming events," because the future doesn't exist. So the question doesn't really make any sense.

Thanks for your questions. I'm looking forward to getting a better grasp of your view of prayer.

The LORD liveth; and blessed be my Rock,
Jim

 

[godrulz]

I read a book on the Bible and Science years ago. They gave research that showed Jonah could have survived (especially with God's hand on him) in the great fish (not necessarily a whale, based on Hebrew). They also gave a modern example of someone who did just that.

Miracles do exist today. God is not on a holiday and has not ceased to be supernatural (despite dispensational boxes). He can intervene supernaturally in creation without tampering with individual free will. Prayer invites God to intervene in ways He might not otherwise to remain impartial.

 

[Hilston]

I read a book on the Bible and Science years ago. They gave research that showed Jonah could have survived (especially with God's hand on him) in the great fish (not necessarily a whale, based on Hebrew). They also gave a modern example of someone who did just that.

Excellent point, godrulz. Jesus said, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," which, if science can be trusted, must mean that Jesus didn't really die for three days. He was just sleeping, or maybe in a coma or something. Thanks, godrulz, for giving us yet another reason to not trust this God of yours.

 

[themuzicman]

OR maybe Hilston is too simple to grasp the concept of symbolism.

Muz

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

It's messing with your free will if there are no miracles today.

No, there is no reason whatsoever to make that claim. Especially in light of how I explained how God works with us.

Unless of course you have a flimsy definition of what a miracle is.

I thought you said you don't believe there are miracles today.

I did say that.

Can you give an example?

Yes, God (if we allow Him) will direct our attention, calm our nerves, sooth our feelings, clear our minds, show us wisdom, avail us to all sorts of things we would not have had if we had not called upon Him.

God will direct our steps if we let Him.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Jim, you must reject the above verse and think it is some type of figure of speech. Is there any way a person could actually be "wise in their own eyes" according to you?

Let me guess... God decreed that man would THINK he is being wise in his own eyes right?? :dizzy:

No one is denying the existence and effects of other wills.

Give me an example of a will that exists OUTSIDE of God's decretive will according to what you believe.

On my view, there is no "altering of upcoming events" because it is all decreed. On your view, there is no "altering of upcoming events," because the future doesn't exist. So the question doesn't really make any sense.

Huh?

The future doesn't exist which is the VERY reason God can and does alter the course of events that are about to transpire.

Imagine a Christian woman who is depressed and on the verge of suicide, (that is the course of events that are about to take place). God is tugging at her through the work on the Holy Spirit and is urging her to pick up her Bible and meditate on Him. She does, and prays to God for help. He directs her to passages that sooth her, calm her and make her realize that all she needs is Him. She leans not on her own understandings but lets God direct her steps. She does not commit suicide. God worked with her through prayer because she was willing to let Him help her and changed the course of events that were about to happen.

Your version of the story would go something like this...
God ordained that a woman be depressed and ordained that she wish to commit suicide. God ordained that she pray to Him and ordained every detail of her prayer. God ordained that she think that God answered her prayer when in reality it was God that ordained her depression in the first place. She does not have the ability to lean on her own understanding because God is directing her every move. God put her through hell for His own Glory. :kookoo:

Sorry man... but your version is just plain unbiblical and wacky.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Attempt number 4.

Jim, tell us which of the following two options is true according to the Bible...

1. The potter takes the vessel that is marred in his hand and makes it again into something good.

or...

2. The potter intentionally mares the vessel and then makes it again claiming he did some "good" by fixing his own marring.

 

[godrulz]

Excellent point, godrulz. Jesus said, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," which, if science can be trusted, must mean that Jesus didn't really die for three days. He was just sleeping, or maybe in a coma or something. Thanks, godrulz, for giving us yet another reason to not trust this God of yours.

Jesus was alive during the three days, right? He died physically (separation of spirit from body). He did not SDA soul-sleep. Jesus body was in the ground. Jonah's body was in a fish, but that is not proof that He was physically dead. This metaphor conveys a central truth and should not be pressed as a wooden literalism. In your logic, Jesus' body must have been covered in sea weed and fish juices, since all points of his analogy must be identical or He is a liar and I trust a feeble god?! Analagous is not identical. Perhaps you should take a course in hermeneutics lest you be dogmatically wrong so often.

My observation is within the historical OT narrative (you are speculating he was dead), and is not related to my Open Theism views. Must you always be an eggshell person? I would be defensive if I had so many red boxes, I suppose.