ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Philetus]

I regret having been a S.T. too. All those years, stuck in a theology that had too many questions - no answers. I didn't grow in my faith. Not one bit. Everything lead me back to what you said.

I am so glad to be freed by understanding and am closer than ever to God.

So much fear of the O.V. Even me at first. But once you allow yourself to loose the fear, it makes soo much more sense.

It is for freedom that Christ sets free. Nothing compares to the joy of knowing that God can regardless!

With no fear of the open future anymore!
Philetus
​

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Bob Hill said: The circumcision gospel had conditions. The gospel of the uncircumcision had no conditions, just belief.

Hilston replied: For those who do not see the flawed reasoning of that statement, no explanation will suffice. For those who do, no explanation is necessary.

Perhaps you are not aware that Paul said basically the same thing. Paul did not view it as flawed reasoning when he said:

But to the one who worketh not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

I realize that you’d prefer to avoid verses like these (especially since they reek of a synergistic relationship between God and man), but isn’t it interesting that Paul sets aside belief, from the category of a work – as has the orthodoxy of Christianity for the past 2000 years.

Yet you instead follow the fringe movement which insists that belief is somehow a “work” that can be boasted of (and then judge the Open View because it does not hold to your weak and unorthodox position).

Paul obviously didn’t recognize it that way, nor has most of Christianity for the past 2000 year, but alas … no explanation will suffice for Paul, as you say.

Perhaps you can correct him when you get to heaven?

 

[Bob Hill]

Open Theism basically means that man is free to choose some things over others. It at least means that one is able to make significant decisions.

What if you discovered that all the choices you thought you made freely were mapped out in advance?

We know that the big question is: Does God know everything that is going to happen in the future? This has been the teaching of orthodox Christianity from early on.

But let’s put these two together. If God knows everything that is going to happen, is there any real freedom?

Or, if we are truly free, can God really know the future entirely?

It has only been about 100 years that some evangelical scholars have rejected the view that God knows everything about the future.

We find that this idea is based more on Greek philosophy than Scripture.

What we see in Scripture, especially in the Old Testament, is a God who changes with the actions and decisions of people. We see that He even expresses surprise at what people do, at times.

When we ask whether God ever changes His mind, we see that He does, when we read His Word. We see that God doesn’t know many things that are going to happen in the future. This is based on many portions of Scripture. Two of the best passages are Gen 6:5-7; Ex 32:9-14.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Ex 32:1-14 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 “So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!” 5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

By the way, thank you ApologeticJedi.

In Christ,
Bob

 

[Poly]

(especially since they reek of a synergistic relationship between God and man)

:shocked: You used the most foul, nasty, offensive word in the whole Calvinist language!!

Synergistic!!! :shocked:

 

[Philetus]

What if you discovered that all the choices you thought you made freely were mapped out in advance?

We know that the big question is: Does God know everything that is going to happen in the future? This has been the teaching of orthodox Christianity from early on.

But let’s put these two together. If God knows everything that is going to happen, is there any real freedom?

Or, if we are truly free, can God really know the future entirely?

Thanks Pastor Hill,

If I though for one second that my life was already mapped out in meticulous detail, I would be really miffed at God for making me in such a way that for a lifetime I thought I mattered to Him in the least; for going to the trouble of presenting me with the pretence of options, any option; and above all for pretending to love me enough to go through the charade of dying on the cross to further confuse me.

I am so thankful that is not the case. If the cross of Jesus proves anything at all it is that God does in fact love us, all of us, enough to take the greatest risk of all: loves us unconditionally with no assurance that any of us will ever respond. The truth is that we have many choices to make and the God given freedom to make them. The greatest decision of all is to believe the truth about God or continue to suppress it through faulty thinking. Thank God we have the Holy Spirit to help us make that choice, let alone all the little mundane choices we have to make on a daily basis.

By grace through faith,
Philetus

​

 

[Philetus]

:shocked: You used the most foul, nasty, offensive word in the whole Calvinist language!!

Synergistic!!! :shocked:

:up: by Grace through faith



:doh: And all this time I thought the most foul, nasty, offensive thing to a Calvinist was “opposable thumbs”.

​

 

[Clete]

I've been asked to explain why I ended the conversation with SS on the basis that his is not a Christian. It would seem to me that even a casual reading of his post #3546 would answer that question, not to mention the fact that he openly admitted it afterward, but for the sake of clarity let me just point it out...

Clete: "The concepts of breath and spirit are connected is the point."

Very true. So, then, gorillas and alligators possess spirit.

Synth here elevates the animal kingdom to the level of man or perhaps more accurately demotes man to the level of animals. The animal rights crowd would love this line of reasoning.

In actual fact, I should have added a word to my statement. I should have said, "The concepts of the "breath of God" and "spirit" are connected."

There is nohwere in Scripture where it even suggests that God Himself breathed life into any creature other than Adam.

You proffered the giving of holy spirit as parallel to the giving of the breath of life to Adam.

Originally posted by Clete

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


The parallel here is obvious​

It was rather clear what you were saying.

Here SS lies. He either didn't understand what I was saying or else he intentionally disregarded my point and responded to a point which he knew I was not making. Either way the last line in the above quotation is a lie.

You're very dense, Clete. I'm not denying that the term can be translated "spirit." I'm merely showing you that the "spirit" Adam was given is the same "spirit" that the animals were given. And nowhere do we read that this "spirit" was qualitatively different.

Don't we? Which of the animals did God choose to die for? Which of the animals did God ever declare an adopted son of God? Which of the animals where created in the image and likeness of the LIVING SPIRIT OF GOD?

In summary, clearly all that is shown by "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" is that Adam was made alive.

Clete responds:

No, he was made a living soul. That this is a "spiritual" life is simply what you impute into the text.

This is a lie. (You are aware that lying is a sin, aren't you SS?)
The plants all around Adam were all alive as were all the animals which were created before him and yet none of them had God Himself breath life into them.

Once again, you're merely assuming that Adam was created for fellowship. Also, you're merely assuming that in order for fellowship to take place, it must be a spiritual sort of fellowship. But, first things first, where is it written that Adam was created to have spiritual fellowship with his Creator, and not, as it is written, to have dominion over the earth and to till and keep the garden of God?

Here SS denies the very purpose of our life as human beings; without which the entire plan of salvation become meaningless. Not to mention the fact that this line of thinking subordinates us to the garden and the plants and animals therein. According to Synth here was were created for their benefit, not the other way around.


And here's the clincher...

Clete - "You ignore the context of 1 Corinthians 15! Look just a few verses earlier...

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.


How could Adam have died spiritually if he never had a spirit to begin with?"

Now, was Christ risen spiritually? or physically? Physically. The resurrection was physical; the death was physical; it was all physical.

Here Synth denies the very gospel itself. He first denies that man's problem is spiritual since Adam didn't have one (and by extention neither do any of his decendants), then he denies that God died spiritually.

The Christian faith cannot survive such a doctrine. Synth is not a Christian and likely never has been. He came here pretending, we thought, to be an Open Theist; now we learn that it goes much deeper than that; he was pretending to be a Christian.

The Hebrew is "dying you shall die." When Adam ate the fruit, part of him was *awakened*, and then it was only then that Adam became *like God*. "Dying thou shalt die." The process of dying began when Adam ate.

Nice twist but when Adam's fellowship with God ended, he was spiritually dead - then and there. Being separated from God is what it means to be spiritually dead.

Further, this declares the lie of Lucifer to be the truth! It was Lucifer who said that if Adam and Eve ate that they would be like God!

Further still, the implication here is that the fall (i.e. sin) was a necessary event for our having any relationship with God at all! Lucifer did us all a favor when he tempted Eve!

Tell me, how can a man believe this and call himself a born again Christian?

I've never read Augustine, except for minor portions. I've read far more Carl Jung than I have Augustine.

Another lie. Synth lies more easily than anyone other than his mentor Hilston.
I didn't say anything about your having read a word of Augustine, Augustine boy!

I said:
Circular reasoning.


Your conclusion is assumed in the premises.

Another lie! Synth is a fountain of intentional and blatant lies! It makes one wonder whether he knows what a lie is!

On the contrary, there is every reason to doubt it. Clete wants the readers to simply turn off their minds and to trust him. "There is simply no reason at all to doubt..." translates to "please please don't doubt this, it's our pet doctrine, so whatever you do, don't try to substantiate it Biblically, just assume its true because it's been told to you."

:vomit:

Now anyone who has been on this forum for longer than a week knows that this is a lie! If it weren't so tragic it would be humorous.

Adam was created to tend the garden and to have dominion over the earth. Where does relationship at all enter into this? That Adam was created for "relationship" is an assumption that has gone on in Christendom for too long. Just as the prerequisites (spiritually alive, et al) for said "relationship" prior to the opening of man's eyes has been a mere assumption for far too long. It's time to shake the dust of our boots off on this thing.

Synth takes one more opportunity to denigrate man to the level of common beasts of the field.

The Son has always had the appearance of a man.

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

The angels as well are described as men throughout the Hebrew scriptures. Look and see.

This is blasphemy! Taken by itself it may actually be true enough but this was said in response to my having asked "Can a non-spiritual being be in any sense "in the image of God"? ... Is God flesh (or was He at the time)?"

God did not have a fleshly body before the Incarnation - ever! He has not always been a man nor has He always had a body.

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

According to Synth, it would have been impossible for Adam to worship God UNTIL he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil!

If that isn't blasphemy then there is no such thing.

There was no need for God to create anything, no, not one single thing. He made what He made simply for the pleasure of it, nothing of necessity. He didn't need to make an earth that had to be tilled, but He wanted to.

This was in response to a point which Synth knew that I did not make and thus is yet another lie. His knowledge that I have made no such point is evidence by his very next sentence...

No, there wasn't a need to have a creature mde in His own image for this tast, but that's what it pleased Him to do. And that's what the Bible (our authority) says He created Adam for.

Again, we are relegated to an janitorial service in which our existence has no meaning outside of taking care of the rest of God's creation. This renders the creation itself meaningless not to mention the entire plan of salvation. For what purpose are we saved? To pull weeds and milk the cows for the rest of eternity?

Synth is not a Christian and is not saved. He denies the nature of God, he denies the plan of salvation, he denies his spiritual need, he denies the spiritual death and resurrection of Christ.

I hope that clears it up.

Synth, any response to this post will be most likely ignored so you don't have to bother responding although I know you won't be able to resist doing so.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[sentientsynth]

I've been asked to explain why I ended the conversation with SS...

ALL RIGHT!

I'm back to my SENTIENT status.

WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:guitar:

Synth, any response to this post will be most likely ignored so you don't have to bother responding although I know you won't be able to resist doing so.

You underestimate the power of the DARK SIDE.

:jeffrson:

 

[Hilston]

Oops! I inadvertently double-posted. Please see the next post for what used to be here. My sincere apologies.

 

[Hilston]

Yet another demonstration of Open View insanity: Clete's refusal to put me on his ignore list. Why would a person who gets so rattled by my posts continue to read them? Why would a person irrationally demand that I stop commenting on his public posts when he has the capability to ignore my posts entirely? The answer seems to lie in the destructive effects of the Open View upon the minds of its adherents.

Here is the latest message from Clete that showed up in my negative rep rubbish bin:

Look! Which part of "DO NOT RESPOND TO MY POSTS" do you not understand! Don't answer that! I don't care what you can or cannot understand, just stop doing it!

See what I mean? He must be out of his mind. Would someone, anyone, preferably a friend of Clete, PLEASE advise him to ignore me. If you truly care about him, please call him, PM him, do something before he loses what is left of his everloving Open-Deism poisoned mind. It is evident to all that he has neither the maturity nor the self-discipline nor the understanding it takes to read my posts without tripping a breaker.

Is there anyone here who still cares about Clete? Please, if you do, urge him to put me on his ignore list. It's for his own good. Nevermind the reason why he continues to torture himself by reading my posts. We can deal with that irrationality later. For now, just somehow get him to put me on his ignore list. That's priority one.

 

[godrulz]

Why do you blame Open Theism for everything, including Clete's insanity? This is a non-sequitur. Just because Clete does not suffer fools gladly has nothing to do with his views on foreknowledge. His personality and temperment are not tainted by his view on omniscience. I am a fellow open theist and he has come close to putting me on ignore and has not been patient with me at times.

 

[Hilston]

Why do you blame Open Theism for everything, including Clete's insanity?

It's a pattern I see among Open Theists. I'm merely connecting the dots. I see what Open Theism did to Lucifer's mind. I see what it did to Adam's mind. The same humanistic worldview and existentialist philosophy that pervaded their thinking is what drives (and infects) the mind of the Open Theist (all according to God's decrees, of course).

Just because Clete does not suffer fools gladly has nothing to do with his views on foreknowledge.

Of course not. It's how he chooses (with his own free will, all according to God's decrees) to "not suffer fools gladly" that is characteristic of the Open View mental disease. Why doesn't he put me on his ignore list? Answer: Because he really does want to read my posts, despite his repeated complaints. He opposes himself, and is a house divided against itself (all according to God's decrees, of course).

... His personality and temperment are not tainted by his view on omniscience.

Irrelevant. I'm urging his friends to care about him on a personal and tempermental level. My thesis concerning the Openness disease pertains to how he reasons; viz., the (il)logic that governs his thinking.

... I am a fellow open theist and he has come close to putting me on ignore and has not been patient with me at times.

And that's not a sign of mental problems? You unwittingly support my thesis. But then again, you're an Open Theist, too. So I expect to find the same incongruities in your thinking as I do in Clete and other Open Theists.

All according to God's decree,
:j

 

[patman]

It is for freedom that Christ sets free. Nothing compares to the joy of knowing that God can regardless!

With no fear of the open future anymore!
Philetus
​

Thanks for your support Philetus.

I wish others here would just listen for a second so they would know the closeness you feel to God when you see him in the light the Bible presents him in.

 

[patman]

Why do you blame Open Theism for everything, including Clete's insanity? This is a non-sequitur. Just because Clete does not suffer fools gladly has nothing to do with his views on foreknowledge. His personality and temperment are not tainted by his view on omniscience. I am a fellow open theist and he has come close to putting me on ignore and has not been patient with me at times.

He is just hunting for any way he can to put someone down... it's like a drug to him.

 

[Hilston]

He is just hunting for any way he can to put someone down.

I have such a low self-esteem, it's the only way to feel better about myself ~ by putting other people down.

Seriously, though, the only reason I comment on Clete's posts is because he has important things to say about Open Theism that need to be addressed. For him to demand that I refrain from commenting on them is absurd. He can easily put me on his ignore list and never have to worry about what I have to say about his posts ever again.

I wish others here would just listen for a second so they would know the closeness you feel to God when you see him in the light the Bible presents him in.

When you feel a closeness to God, do you believe God is feeling close to you, as well? And is He able to feel close to you, all the while He is being angry at person X, sad about person Y, happy about person Z, surprised by person 1, disgusted by person 2, and grieved over person 3? Multiply these circumstance thousands of times over at any given moment: Is this the kind of God you imagine? One who is subject to whims of thousands of people, all at the same time, and Who can be externally moved by these thousands of creatures into thousands of conflicting emotions concurrently?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

When you feel a closeness to God, do you believe God is feeling close to you, as well? And is He able to feel close to you, all the while He is being angry at person X, sad about person Y, happy about person Z, surprised by person 1, disgusted by person 2, and grieved over person 3? Multiply these circumstance thousands of times over at any given moment: Is this the kind of God you imagine? One who is subject to whims of thousands of people, all at the same time, and Who can be externally moved by these thousands of creatures into thousands of conflicting emotions concurrently?

Why is that a problem?

 

[patman]

I have such a low self-esteem, it's the only way to feel better about myself ~ by putting other people down.

Seriously, though, the only reason I comment on Clete's posts is because he has important things to say about Open Theism that need to be addressed. For him to demand that I refrain from commenting on them is absurd. He can easily put me on his ignore list and never have to worry about what I have to say about his posts ever again.

When you feel a closeness to God, do you believe God is feeling close to you, as well? And is He able to feel close to you, all the while He is being angry at person X, sad about person Y, happy about person Z, surprised by person 1, disgusted by person 2, and grieved over person 3? Multiply these circumstance thousands of times over at any given moment: Is this the kind of God you imagine? One who is subject to whims of thousands of people, all at the same time, and Who can be externally moved by these thousands of creatures into thousands of conflicting emotions concurrently?

You would rather him not care or something?

Jonah 4:11
And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

Yeah, doesn't it make sense to you that if I feel close to God would be because he is close to me too? How can I be close to him and him not be close to me?

Do you see? How on earth can you listen if you assume we can't be real christians. I am convicted by the Bible to believe how I do. It isn't my will or my teachings or my assumptions I place on the word, yet you hate all of us for believing what we read.

We truly love God Hilston, I don't care what you say.

 

[godrulz]

Hiltson (pun intended):

You did not answer my question (you say as God decreed) as to why God would decree us to spout 'error' or act stupid when the Spirit's ministry is to lead us into all truth (we are sincere, but sincerely wrong in your humble opinion)? Men and Satan work in the realm of lies and ignorance, not God.

 

[Vaquero45]

When you feel a closeness to God, do you believe God is feeling close to you, as well? And is He able to feel close to you, all the while He is being angry at person X, sad about person Y, happy about person Z, surprised by person 1, disgusted by person 2, and grieved over person 3? Multiply these circumstance thousands of times over at any given moment: Is this the kind of God you imagine? One who is subject to whims of thousands of people, all at the same time, and Who can be externally moved by these thousands of creatures into thousands of conflicting emotions concurrently?

Sorry to jump in here out of the blue. If it wasn't this post it would have been some other.

Jim, do you feel close to God?
You must answer yes or no depending on God's decree of course, and it really doesn't matter which. Are you really close to God or not? There is no way to know because God could be tricking you into thinking you are close or not. He plays this game with us all the time. People all over the world sincerely follow non-Biblical false religions by God's decree, right?

:think: But are non-Biblical religions really false? Maybe Allah is the determining god, and he makes the people he didn't pick before the foundation of the earth believe in christianity among others? :dizzy: There is no logical way for you to refute this. All you can do is claim that God picked you and taught you what is right, but determining-Allah could have planted that belief in your mind! God can determine whatever He feels like right? Justice need not apply in His case, right?... It's all good!

Do you believe God feels close to you? Who cares what you answer because God decreed it, and as reality seems to show, truth has a random effect on your God's decrees.

Can God be angry, sad, happy, surprised, disgusted, or grieved over different people? Especially 1000's of times over? NO WAY! He'd have to be "omni" something-or-another...

Could God be "subject" to the "whims" of thousands of people? Inconceivable! But He might decree that a ton of them think He is, cause what's funnier than that?! He might even throw a joke in the Bible about Moses or Samuel effecting Him. HA! I would DIE laughing if He did! :rotfl:

Jim, why do you trust this God?

Poisoned mind you say? How would you know? You might be the only one suffering the disease! (by God's decree of course)

Luciferian? That's not a hard game to play...

Hath God said... "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me, My mind would not be favorable toward this people?

Hath God said... "it is very good" but later, "it repenteth me that I have made them"?

Hath God said... "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind"?



Hath God said... "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden"?

Eve said to herself... "surely die"??? Nah! probably just an anthro-figure!




We are not idiots and we want to glorify God at least as much as you do.