ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

I am a person who believes the Open View of God.

It develops an honest responsible character. It allows real choice for man, rather than making man a semi robot. It produces moral responsibility. It causes freedom for man and contingency to exist.

The application of these laws to certain passages clears up problems.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable. There are some things God does not know before hand. Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.

Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not under the law of freedom. “God said ‘She will return to Me!’ But she did not return” Jer 3:7 And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return..

God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41). Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken (Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5). God broke a promise sworn to the fathers of Israel because of disobedience (Num 14:23,30,34).

When God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

God repented in many other situations. Here are some examples: Ex 32:7-14; Deu 9:8-25; 1 Sa 15:11,35; 2 Sam 24:16; 1 Chr 21:15; Jer 4:28; 15:6; 20:16; 26:19; Joel 2:13; Jon 3:10; Zec 8:14; Mal 3:6.

Isaiah prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah that he would die soon (2 Ki 20:1-5), but he didn’t.

Under some circumstances, God said He would not repent. The context of these passages show why (Num 23:19; 1 Sa 15:29; Psa 110:4).

When God foreknows, declares, or prophesies an event as being sure, to make sure, He makes it happen. Does foreknowledge cause things to happen (Isa 14:24; 44:28; 46:9-11; Rom 8:29)?

God “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11). Does this mean all things, even outside of this context? 1 Ti 2:4; 1 Th 4:3; 5:18

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[zapp]

Kudos Jedi and Bro' Hill

Kudos Jedi and Bro' Hill

A-Jedi and brother Hill, you're both doing a good days work on this.
Reverend Jedi... please do not lose patience with the debaters - - the cracking theories are old and well-argued, and it takes time for light to get into those cracks.

I am just reading and learning. I guess I am more in the Open camp than I had suspected.... I have been seeing the character of our Father for years [MANY] in the scriptures, his mercy causing him to change his intentions and actions, his people rebelling and UN-doing what he clearly prophesied for them and intended for them "to bring them good, not harm"..... Jesus desiring earnestly to shelter many under his wing, but being thwarted in His benign will... "COULD do no mighty work there... because of their unbelief"

I do not mean to open yet another front in this issue... will first search this subject on the forum and see what brighter lights have had to say, but to me the fuller understanding of this issue is yoked to a proper "theology of Satan", if I may use that term. I am just constantly perplexed by the vast ignorance and "ignoring" of Pastors, Teachers, luminaries, electronic-talking-heads, authors, when it comes to the nature and work of Satan, and those closely associated with Him. Not to be hypercritical, but some very big-wigs seem to just pooh-pooh and laugh-off the whole subject, confident in the Knowledge that God is Sovereign and "in control" of all things, and only "sics" his pet Rottweiler on those who were foreordained to be ripped asunder by him. So no need to be concerned about that roaring noise you hear..... the pawprints about your dwelling..... Go back to sleep now. ..... Yipes.

I'll recede into the shadows now and keep reading these excellent posts.

your servant
z

 

[godrulz]

Demonology...


Spiritual warfare probably does not make sense in a Calvinistic worldview. Gregory Boyd, Open Theist, has a good book on Satan and the problem of evil.

 

[RobE]

If you mean that God never says something that doesn’t come to pass, then that is not true. If you are saying that God never says something that isn’t, at that time, truthful, then you are correct.

Then I am correct and we are in agreement.

Why are you wasting my time with this? … I gave the definition of forecasting. You agreed that it is synonymous with forecasting and earlier you agreed it was synonymous with prediction. Now you are trying to get out of this by splitting hairs. Let’s move on as this is only drifting further away from any real issue.

I'm wasting my time on this because it speaks to our ability .vs God's ability to predict something. You seem to feel we are equals with God in this regard.

How about this …. Since my actual position is that God is OFTEN not able to predict what a free will agent will do, how about I give a verse for that instead? In other words, can I give a verse that supports my position, instead of responding to your strawman?

If you will do the same. See the punishment for disobedience here........

I’ll give two, and I’ll hold it down to two for now so that you are not overwhelmed. In both of these, they show that God was not confident on what would happen.

1. Jeremiah 26:3 is “Do not diminish a word. Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.”

14 The LORD said to me, "From the north disaster will be poured out on all who live in the land. 15 I am about to summon all the peoples of the northern kingdoms," declares the LORD.
"Their kings will come and set up their thrones
in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem;
they will come against all her surrounding walls
and against all the towns of Judah.

16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people
because of their wickedness in forsaking me,
in burning incense to other gods
and in worshiping what their hands have made.​

2. Exodus 3:17 is “Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

So God foresaw that Israel would change their minds when they saw war. This doesn't sound like He's unsure.

To clarify I had made a statement prior that there was no passage in the Bible that said either;
1)God has exhaustive foreknowledge
2)God never makes a prediction that doesn’t come to pass

I assume that you believe this disproves #2, however you missed that this verse only holds up with prophets, not with all prophecies from God. God could make a prophecy without a prophet and it would not have bearing on this verse.

Deuteronomy 18 deals with executing someone who says he speaks for God but never really heard from God. So God answers the question, “how can we tell?”. Basically God commits that if God made the prophecy through the prophet, he will bring it to pass. Now he didn’t always bring it to pass (like with Jonah) but Jonah wasn’t a false prophet because he really did hear from God and speak for God – so had someone tried to stone Jonah, they would be wrong, even though that prophecy didn’t come to pass.

True and we are in agreement on this because God never says anything that at the time isn't truthful.

But what you missed is that this verse doesn’t cover all prophecies by God. For instance it doesn’t cover when God told Moses that he would wipe out all the Israelites – because there was no “false prophet” for Moses to stone (and further, Moses knew that itreally was God speaking - since what you missed was that the point of Deut. 18 was how to tell if someone was making up what God said or not - not about whether or not prohpecies would come to pass).

I didn't miss it. You just want to ignore that prophecies must be true to be from God.
We're in agreement as to 'why' they don't come to pass. Just arguing over the perspective. Present .vs future, etc....

Deuteronomy only covers false prophets, not al prophecies from God, and further it doesn’t even cover them exhaustively, but only when the issue, of whether a prophet was speaking for God or not, was in doubt.

It does say that God's prophecies are true which we both agree with.

I assume that you are trying to say that this verse disproves #1 (that no verse exists saying God has absolute foreknowledge). And this is a much weaker verse than the Deuteronomy 18 verse. Clearly God has done amazing things to create the world and the universe, and man will never be able to know everything that God has done … but this does not in any way say that God knows the future at all (even to have general foreknowledge, let alone exhaustive) so this verse falls far short of proving anything.

I'm not saying that it disproves #1. You aren't allowed to use #1 since.......

How about this …. Since my actual position is that God doesn't know what He, Himself will do: then He's unable to foresee those outcomes where He changes the future? Knowing what humans will do is much different.

Let me respond to these with numbers for simplicity.

1. Scientists recongize random events and even events of acausality such as Sophie’s choice. These a decisions that could have gone either way, there was no cause behind the choice.​

No reasons whatsoever, huh?

2. Generally no.​

Why not?

3. Generally no.​

Then why would God knowing what you WILL do make you UNABLE to do otherwise?

4. Yes, that is possible.​

So, possibilities exist even when things are improbable. Would you say that ability speaks to possible; whereas, willingness speaks to probable?

5. Generally no.​

Well the word 'can' speaks to abilities whereas 'will' speaks to_____________.

6. You should have left the word “how” out. That implies falsely that I have made such an argument. Whether compatibilism is possible or not would not prove exhaustive foreknowledge - it only has the ability to disprove it.​

What incapacitates your ability when things are foreknown?

Rob

 

[Bob Hill]

Zapp,

I have been interested in that evil being, Satan, for some time. Satan appeared to Eve as the serpent. But the word for serpent can have a number of meanings. Satan was the most powerful being God ever created. He’s also called the god of this age. 2 Co 4:4 the god of this age. He’s also the prince of the power of the air. Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

When Michael, the archangel, was disputing with the devil, he didn’t dare to revile him. Jude 8,9 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” By this it seems that he was shown to be more powerful than Michael.

We have an account of Satan getting permission to tempt Job. Job 1:6-9,12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Job 2:1-4,6,7 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” 4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” 7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

We have an account of Satan opposing the Angel of the Lord in Zec 3:1,2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

Also, when Satan tempted our Lord, he had tremendous power. Lk 4:5,6 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

In the Apostle Paul’s ministry, Satan had the power to hinder him. 1 Th 2:18 Therefore we wanted to come to you - even I, Paul, time and again - but Satan hindered us.

What’s the work of Satan today? This is cleared up when we go back to the Garden of Eden. There, we see he is a deceiver. Gen 3:1-7 Now the serpent (nachash The ch is sounded like the ch in ache.) was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Nachash has many root meanings.
1. The verb, Only Piel. means: practice divination, divine, observe signs. Satan is called the tempter: Mat 4:3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
2. n.m. serpent: as hissing; as crafty tempter; n.[m.] divination, enchantment, in story of Balaam.
3. mythol. fleeing serpent, of eclipse-dragon
4. n.m.(f.) copper, bronze polished; and shining adj. of bronze

In Num 21:6-8 this Hebrew word is used to describe the fiery serpents. “So the LORD sent fiery serpents [hanechashim] among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents [hanachash] from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent [saraph, singular of seraphim], and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent [nechash nechshet], and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent [hanachash] had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent [nechash hanechshet], he lived.

The same word [ha seraphim] is used of the heavenly ones of Is 6:2,6. So saraph is used of serpants and heavenly beings. And nachash is used of a serpent and a glorious spirit being. Therefore, I believe the serpent was a brilliant angelic being who tempted Eve to do the same thing he did, not believe God.

And he [the nachash] said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

What was Satan’s enticement? Was it to do some immoral act? No he attacked her faith in God. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

Satan was there to stimulate doubt in Eve. It says he had been in the Eden in Ezekiel 28:12-22 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, and you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.”’” So, it seems that Satan sinned before Adam and Eve were created, and he tempted Eve to doubt God, just as he did.

His final abode will be in the lake of fire: Rev 20:1-3,7-10 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The Devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are . And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

What do you think?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bacon]

The adversary

The adversary

...Satan appeared to Eve as the serpent.

That was not the adversary. That was a snake.

But the word for serpent can have a number of meanings.

Like? The word means "snake."

Satan was the most powerful being God ever created.

The adversary, like all of the sons of the god, is basically a man.

He’s also called the god of this age. 2 Co 4:4 the god of this age. He’s also the prince of the power of the air. Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

Air is that of which breath is composed. In biblical anatomy, though, it is not morally neutral. Breath is intelligent. Hence, bad air produces bad morals, and it is bad air that is operating in the lost, unlike the holy breath at work in the saints:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air [of] the spirit [breath] that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit [breath].

When Michael, the archangel, was disputing with the devil, he didn’t dare to revile him. Jude 8,9 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” By this it seems that he was shown to be more powerful than Michael.

Michael, like all of the sons of the god is essentially a man as well.

...We have an account of Satan opposing the Angel of the Lord in Zec 3:1,2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

Why is "Angel" capitalized? It just means "messenger." These "messengers/sons of the gods" are basically men that live in the sky.

....What’s the work of Satan today? This is cleared up when we go back to the Garden of Eden. There, we see he is a deceiver. Gen 3:1-7 Now the serpent (nachash The ch is sounded like the ch in ache.) was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

That was a snake. "beast of the field."

....Satan was there to stimulate doubt in Eve. It says he had been in the Eden in Ezekiel 28:12-22 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty....

The scripture you quote specifically says that it is a reference to the king of Tyre, not the adversary.

Bill Ross

 

[zapp]

That was not the adversary. That was a snake.

Michael, like all of the sons of the god is essentially a man as well.

Why is "Angel" capitalized? It just means "messenger." These "messengers/sons of the gods" are basically men that live in the sky.


The scripture you quote specifically says that it is a reference to the king of Tyre, not the adversary.

Bill Ross

Yes, we don't need allusions to get the picture here.
Earth, and earth-limited creatures, are a small portion of Biblical cosmology, but not to say "unimportant", for the Bible is foremost a collection of consistent messages to the race of Adam, concerning where we came from, what happened, the consequences, the meaning of our existence, and where we are headed.

Along the way there are glimpses of other realms. YHWH, the manifest-to-man's-senses form of God, appeared to the early patriarchs in various appointments for various reasons but as time wore on, these appearances were less frequent. The "heavenly" sphere or plane [pick one] is populated by a host of different sentient beings, and I'm persuaded that nothing in the canon of scripture attempts to provide a detailed catalog of these beings, in encyclopedic relief. I look closely at Ezekiel's writings, for there, if one reads the text plainly, are a host of classes/categories of beings that defy our conventional 'Sunday School' theologies. Suffice it to say that the Real World is a highly complex place, home to beings that we have little or no knowledge of, and appropriately so for otherwise we would be even MORE Distracted from the "main thing", which is Paradise-regained... if you will.

I trust no other source quite so much as the Gospels.... the revelation of Jesus, concerning Satan: his identity, his character traits, his modus operandum, his destiny, and so forth. The revelation Jesus provided us about Satan, and about "demons" dwarfs the combined sum of all other scriptures on these topics. And what more credible source do we need? It is subject of another thread and merits lengthy and scholarly treatment, but the orthodox christian faith on the whole is in desperate need of a correct "theology of Satan". Churchmen routinely credit God-the-Father with deeds and results that actually are rightly attributable to Satan and his network [think of it as a spiritual "terrorist network"], and vice-versa.... Satan and his proxies get credit for works of a benevolent true God.

 

[zapp]

Zapp,

I have been interested in that evil being, Satan, for some time. What do you think?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

A good first "lesson", sir Bob.
There's so much more. I think a very important study is needed strictly from the Gospels, as a bit of a "baseline". Jesus knew/knows Satan personally. I will not speculate, as others have, on the relation of Christ/YHWH/Messiah and Satan/Lucifer in the unchronicled Aeons. More pertinent is what we concretely know.

Satan is 'rich' and 'powerful', Jesus acknowledged. In fact Jesus called him both "god of this world" and "the prince of this world". Satan was not kidding when he offered the glories of this world system to our Lord... they were indeed his to give, and even after the resurrection and ascension... for John soberly informs us that the "whole world lies in" his power yet. Unless you are a full Preterist .

Satan binds people... or is capable of binding people under chains of disease. He is a murderer, a thief, a destroyer. He has wisdom, and it is attractive wisdom. It is wisdom difficult to weed out of our garden. He is a theologue! He has doctrines and delivers very impressive messages. He appears to be an angel of light. He is capable of "sifting" even the strongest of saints, and I hope that it was a "one off" when Christ declined to intervene to deflect such sifting from Peter. He can enter in to a willing vessel [a man... person] though I should hope those occasions are rare. Must be stuffy for him.

He was in one sense Judged and defeated at the cross, but somehow retains power in this present world, in which we are a rebellious alien force [the church] militating against his rule, challenging his authority. His end seems certain, but between here and there is murky. At one point, when the 70 had returned rejoicing that they found demons to be subject to their commands in Jesus-name, the Lord said he saw Satan fall like lightening. I have no earnest CLUE what that means. Someone needs to weigh-in on that one.

He has angels, or had angels. This is not a crystal-clear point is it? Those angels that rebelled are said to be "in chains". A reading of 1 Enoch is useful... some crowd of them appear to be confined but its not clear to me that all the rebellious ones are in restraints of some kind. Even less clear is the relationship of Satan to demons and unclean spirits. This is another big can of worms, is it not. I do not buy the common, unsupportable 'doctrine' that demons=unclean*spirits=fallen*angels. Nothing in scripture tells us that... someone cooked it up out of thin air. The earmarks, however, the activities and "responsibilities" of the demonic sure appear to be similar to Satanic character, but of a much lower, base, grisly kind. None of the pomp and luminosity of the so-called great one.

Satan blinds, satan has power in the immediate zone surrounding our world. He opposes the activities of christians, especially effective, big christians. He keeps unbelievers in binds, blinded so that they may not see the truth. We are told to labor against this condition, and we can succeed [openness ]

Satan actively resists the will of God being done. He is hardly omnipotent, but seems to be far more effective in certain locales in certain seasons... he has his strongholds though I do not make doctrine of that term. His strongholds change... some are broken, some not. Both OT and New indicate that Satan and other malevolent beings have power over earthly governments. I know that scripture ALSO says that God appoints governance, but we must not be simplistic about these matters... paradox is normal in the pages of scripture. Hyperbole is normal also... a literary device of exaltation and warning. So we have to read past the superficial.

For sure, we cannot avoid conflict with Satan's "order" here. We are told to resist him, to ignore and deflect his wisdom, and to pray earnestly "deliver us from the Evil One". We have a chance. What chance has the ignorant and unbelieving and rebellious?

In time, Satan will raise up a phony "messiah" figure, and will lend to that one full measure of his guile, his power, his signs and lying wonders, his political skill, his knowledge, his hatred. Many, if not most, will be misled into thinking this one is THE ONE we wait for.

 

[RobE]

Rob,

This is the very essence of my problem with the S.V.. Admittedly you know there is no evidence yet you believe anyway and teach it to non-believers.

It should be nothing to provide proof if it were there.

Likewise, you submit that God is unable to foreknow the actions of free will agents; even though the Bible contains accounts of when He foreknew the actions of free will agents. Will you continue to deny this and remain in your error? Open Theism teaches that God makes mistakes to the unbeliever; is it worse to teach God is infallible in your opinion?

Rob

 

[patman]

Likewise, you submit that God is unable to foreknow the actions of free will agents; even though the Bible contains accounts of when He foreknew the actions of free will agents. Will you continue to deny this and remain in your error? Open Theism teaches that God makes mistakes to the unbeliever; is it worse to teach God is infallible in your opinion?

Rob

Rob, I agree that He knows some of the future. But the difference between you and I is that I do not take that understanding as far as you do without having reason to.

Remember the Settled Equation? The 3 main faulty evidences S.V.er's use to prove 100% future knowledge?

1. “A” knows the future because “A” accurately predicted “B”.

2. “A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.

3. “A” is powerful. Therefore A can do A-Z (i.e. everything).

Everything you have ever presented to me has always fallen under one of these three.

Your last post falls under 1. We know this is not true because sometimes we can predict the future. None of us know the future with 100% totality. Therefore A accurately predicting B is not equal to total future knowledge.

Rob, present evidence that does no fall into these 3 fallacies. Otherwise know that all your evidence that you count is not evidence at all, and the results of your actions means you knowing misrepresent God based on inaccurate and incomplete info.

it is important for you to know that we must be careful what we say, or we will end up like Job. Covering our mouths and saying "I spoke what I did not know."

I only speak what I know. I know that God has predicted the future accurately, that he has not predicted it accurately, and thus his future knowledge is not total or unlimited.

Rob, you try to turn this into a debate. You try to counter me by saying "You do it too," thinking that will get me, but you never answer what I want... evidence. You can call me a hypocrite all day long, but it still demands an answer.

I am trying to show you why your evidence thus far is faulty. If you have other evidence, present it. Otherwise, stop saying what you do not know to be true.

As for the accusations that I am a hypocrite by accusing you of doing what I do, I again say that I have submitted evidence for all 7 points. This being post 5 just about point one is proof of point one. You have no solid evidence yet you preach anyway.

Remember Job and what he said to God after saying things he knew nothing about...

Job 40
3 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
4 “ Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;
Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”

Job 42
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

Rob, I know you may still think me a hypocrite, but I have considered myself. Do not let your opinion of me overcast the examination of your own heart. Have you or have you not spoken things about God and his future knowledge without evidence of what speak about?

If you have, cover your mouth.

Read Carefully what God Asked Job when he spoke things he had no knowledge about. Take it in, God is serous about what we say and is angered when we speak what we do not know...

Job 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “ Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

Please present your evidence. You already said you have none, are you going to look again? If you can not find any, consider mine.

You are quick to find tiny escape clauses. You are good at pointing out small discrepancies that in the bigger picture fall apart. If i were to give you an example to make a point, you completely miss the point and attack the example.

If you stuck to your methods of disputing things in every situation, I could see you saying to Jesus "That parable about the mustard seed, well the mustard seed is not really the smallest seed... Bad example Jesus, your analogy is bad, so you are wrong."

My advise to you is to listen to the meanings of things. And do not make up answers or alternatives when there is no evidence to justify your efforts.

Alternative theories are not evidence, evidence is evidence. Present scripture for your ideas. Otherwise, cover your mouth like Job wisely did. You are so full of ideas, but no scripture to back it. Rob, God doesn't need new thinking on the word, he needs us to honor his word and preach it as it is presented.

If the unbeliever doesn't like how God presents himself, that is his problem, not mine.

God Bless, RobE,
Patman

 

[Bacon]

The god's challenge to Job

The god's challenge to Job

...
4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “ Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
....

The challenge of the god in this passage reflects his ignorance of cosmology! Modern Sixth Graders ave a more accurate understanding of science than the author of Job!

For example, it is presented as incomprehensible to Job that he should fathom (pun intended) the foundations of the dry land because the dry land was said to be brought forth from the bottomless abyss ("abyss" means "without bottom"). The dry land, the ancients imagined, had inexplicably been founded on top of the abyss, with invisible foundations:

Ps 24:
1 A Psalm of David. The earth [dry land] is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

Even in the first century, they knew little more than this:

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of [the] God the heavens [skies] were of old, and the earth [dry land] standing out of the water and in the water:

Verses 9-11 are about the waters above the canvas rather than below it.

They were not scientists but rather derived their cosmology from myths such as this:

Genesis 1:
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament [probably canvas] in the midst of the water, and let it be a division between water and water, and it was so.
7 And God made the firmament [probably canvas], and God divided between the water which was under the firmament [probably canvas] and the water which was above the firmament [probably canvas].
8 And God called the firmament [probably canvas] Heaven [sky], and God saw that it was good, and there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the water which is under the heaven [sky] be collected into one {1} place, and let the dry land appear, and it was so. And the water which was under the heaven [sky] was collected into {2} its places, and the dry land appeared. {1) Gr. meeting 2) Gr. their meetings}
10 And God called the dry land Earth [dirt - not the planet], and the {1} gatherings of the waters he called Seas, and God saw that it was good. {1) Gr. systems}

Modern school children learn that we are on the side of a spinning ball in a vast empty space, not on dry land mysteriously on top of a bottomless water, with a canvas ceiling with water above it and stars embedded.

So, if I were Job, I would take the challenge. In fact, Moses would have flunked Junior High School if he said that the sky was a ceiling with water above it.

I'm not saying this just to mock but rather to encourage you all to examine your scriptures more critically and not just be frightened by depictions of a scary god. We have left the Medieval and are now in the information age and we would do well to stop basing our science on pre-scientific myths, and also to not re-cast the myths as modern science - they are decidedly not.

Bill Ross

 

[patman]

The challenge of the god in this passage reflects his ignorance of cosmology! Modern Sixth Graders ave a more accurate understanding of science than the author of Job!

For example, it is presented as incomprehensible to Job that he should fathom (pun intended) the foundations of the dry land because the dry land was said to be brought forth from the bottomless abyss ("abyss" means "without bottom"). The dry land, the ancients imagined, had inexplicably been founded on top of the abyss, with invisible foundations:

.....

I'm not saying this just to mock but rather to encourage you all to examine your scriptures more critically and not just be frightened by depictions of a scary god. We have left the Medieval and are now in the information age and we would do well to stop basing our science on pre-scientific myths, and also to not re-cast the myths as modern science - they are decidedly not.

Bacon,

I am not presenting a "scary god" to Rob, he is old enough and smart enough to understand and know better. Rather, I am trying to get Rob to respect God by not speaking what he truly does not know.

And to you I recommend the same. Your faith in science over God's word is inadvisable. When you criticize the author of Job, will you too will find yourself covering your mouth?

He will ask "Where were you when I laid the firmament? Do you know what it is? Do you know its history and the history of it's waters? Answer me if you understand."

The difference is that today, you think you and the scientist understand enough to discredit the Bible. But what you don't realize is we are still in the dark ages. The things we do not know tower against what we do, so we theorize all day long using circumstantial evidence as a crutch.

If God is the creator, shouldn't you be interested in at least speaking with respect about him and his word? Don't be like Job, taking what little you think you know and drawing conclusions you can't own up to.

It is hard to get the tone of these threads sometimes. My tone is not angry I am not tying to undermine you or smart off or be creative with my answers. I just want you to think about it, after all, who am I to you? Just some online book.

It is your life, your decision to live right. If you want to believe the bible is flawed, I will not debate you on it here. What I will say is you better be sure this is the path you want, because you must live with the decisions you make. Do not be like Job, and when you meet God, he question you on the things you said about him. Do you really want to cover your mouth in shame because you spoke what you didn't understand?

Live a good life, bacon, and do not depend on what science thinks it might know over the Bible. When you (or the scientific community) see the firmament or the waters were never as the Bible said with your own eyes, only then would I understand why you cast Judgement on scripture.

I will not address creationism as it relates to the truth of the Bible any more in this thread as it is not the subject of it. Find a thread that does and I might discuss it there instead. We must focus on Open theism without getting too far off subject or we will get nowhere. Discussing if the Bible is real or not is too far off...

Thanks.

 

[zapp]

Hey,
not responding to any one post, just still getting a grip on how much OV I buy, and the converse.

To me, and I admit this is a rigid, wooden view of calvinism, but its what I have received from the Calvinists themselves so....
Calvinism and the Settled View ultimately reach "perfection" with a God that no longer needs to be God. There is nothing left to know, there will be no changes, all ground rules for all eventualities are eternally [better put... timelessly] established, all humans, aborted or not, are fixed in their deeds, lives, thoughts, etc, all evil is known and present in the mind of God whether past present or yet to come from our perspective, all is, all was, and all that we deem not yet is already done, the books are already opened, judging has already occurred, the new heaven and new earth already done. So what we have is a "perfect machine" that does not have a use for thinking, much less the ghastly qualities of loving, emoting, feeling. Its not unlike something we can easily imagine:
I am a bit of an amateur engineer and I enjoy wrenching on things, building things, fooling with computers [i have several for sale.... want one?]. I imagine that I can build a small desalination pump that is efficient enough to run on sunlight, and darn little sunlight at that. So I build it so utterly perfectly, of such godlike materials, that it will never require one speck of maintenance, it will run exactly "per spec" 24x7 for thousands of years without missing a beat, indeed without so much as the threat of any failure, electrical, mechanical, act of god... or satan.., anything... nada. It will sit in its position and pipe out clean fresh water for millenia. No more thinking by anyone is needed, no intervention, no nothing. it is god.

 

[patman]

Hey,
not responding to any one post, just still getting a grip on how much OV I buy, and the converse.

To me, and I admit this is a rigid, wooden view of calvinism, but its what I have received from the Calvinists themselves so....
Calvinism and the Settled View ultimately reach "perfection" with a God that no longer needs to be God. There is nothing left to know, there will be no changes, all ground rules for all eventualities are eternally [better put... timelessly] established, all humans, aborted or not, are fixed in their deeds, lives, thoughts, etc, all evil is known and present in the mind of God whether past present or yet to come from our perspective, all is, all was, and all that we deem not yet is already done, the books are already opened, judging has already occurred, the new heaven and new earth already done. So what we have is a "perfect machine" that does not have a use for thinking, much less the ghastly qualities of loving, emoting, feeling. Its not unlike something we can easily imagine:
I am a bit of an amateur engineer and I enjoy wrenching on things, building things, fooling with computers [i have several for sale.... want one?]. I imagine that I can build a small desalination pump that is efficient enough to run on sunlight, and darn little sunlight at that. So I build it so utterly perfectly, of such godlike materials, that it will never require one speck of maintenance, it will run exactly "per spec" 24x7 for thousands of years without missing a beat, indeed without so much as the threat of any failure, electrical, mechanical, act of god... or satan.., anything... nada. It will sit in its position and pipe out clean fresh water for millenia. No more thinking by anyone is needed, no intervention, no nothing. it is god.

Interesting.

In taking the scenario to the next level, we see the contradiction the S.V. presents. God the creator created this "perfect" machine and knew it would be full of evil. Everything being programed, as it were, by the initial set of events we find the God started all of this evil world intentionally?!

God is Good, yet he creates evil? This is not how God presents himself in his word... the best example being his sorrow he created man after seeing mans' evil. It isn't a figure of speech. How can a future knowing God be sorry for his act of creation in one chapter, yet in another be creating that which he is sorry he is making?

Too many contradictions in the S.V. when you hold it to the light of scripture.

 

[Vaquero45]

Hey,
not responding to any one post, just still getting a grip on how much OV I buy, and the converse.

To me, and I admit this is a rigid, wooden view of calvinism, but its what I have received from the Calvinists themselves so....
Calvinism and the Settled View ultimately reach "perfection" with a God that no longer needs to be God. There is nothing left to know, there will be no changes, all ground rules for all eventualities are eternally [better put... timelessly] established, all humans, aborted or not, are fixed in their deeds, lives, thoughts, etc, all evil is known and present in the mind of God whether past present or yet to come from our perspective, all is, all was, and all that we deem not yet is already done, the books are already opened, judging has already occurred, the new heaven and new earth already done. So what we have is a "perfect machine" that does not have a use for thinking, much less the ghastly qualities of loving, emoting, feeling. Its not unlike something we can easily imagine:
I am a bit of an amateur engineer and I enjoy wrenching on things, building things, fooling with computers [i have several for sale.... want one?]. I imagine that I can build a small desalination pump that is efficient enough to run on sunlight, and darn little sunlight at that. So I build it so utterly perfectly, of such godlike materials, that it will never require one speck of maintenance, it will run exactly "per spec" 24x7 for thousands of years without missing a beat, indeed without so much as the threat of any failure, electrical, mechanical, act of god... or satan.., anything... nada. It will sit in its position and pipe out clean fresh water for millenia. No more thinking by anyone is needed, no intervention, no nothing. it is god.

I share the same observations of the settled view, I think you are right on. The only exception I would take is with "perfection", and patman did a great job of expressing the same thoughts I had when I read your post.
The God of the Bible is not evil. If He planned out every event of His creation, why did He fill it with so much evil? The only option that maintains God's righteousness, (at least in my mind) is that He made free beings, able to choose good or evil, and also necessarily that they be able to express real love for Him instead of contrived nonsense.
God tells us that we should not sin that grace may abound, but a settled viewer has told me that God plans sin that His glory (shown through punishing sinners) may abound. I reject that. What's the difference? We glorify God because of His grace, among other things, right? From the "settled" point of view, God exercised poor logic when He exhorted us through Paul that we shouldn't sin that grace may abound. Assuming one can get past the meaninglessness of ANY exhortation in the settled view, why would a God who plans sin to glorify Himself care why men sin? To make grace abound or otherwise, it's all good/glorifying in the end, no?


Other than to say, "me too", I posted this to point out that I strongly hold to the OV, and agree with your observations. Hopefully my thoughts here will help you grip how much of the OV you buy.

 

[Delmar]

just still getting a grip on how much OV I buy, and the converse.

There is no need to buy the OV wholesale, because it does not suggest, in any way, that nothing has been determined ahead of time by God! The OV suggests that many things are not settled, because people have been granted the ability to make real choices.

 

[RobE]

Rob, I agree that He knows some of the future. But the difference between you and I is that I do not take that understanding as far as you do without having reason to.

Certainly you make God into a finite being.

Remember the Settled Equation? The 3 main faulty evidences S.V.er's use to prove 100% future knowledge?

1. “A” knows the future because “A” accurately predicted “B”.

2. “A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.

3. “A” is powerful. Therefore A can do A-Z (i.e. everything).

Everything you have ever presented to me has always fallen under one of these three.

Where did the settled equations come from? God or you? Who says they are faulty evidences God or you?

Your last post falls under 1. We know this is not true because sometimes we can predict the future. None of us know the future with 100% totality. Therefore A accurately predicting B is not equal to total future knowledge.

I would say that my conclusion falls under #3. God is more intelligent than you so if you are able to do A-C, He is able to do A-Z.

Rob, present evidence that does no fall into these 3 fallacies. Otherwise know that all your evidence that you count is not evidence at all, and the results of your actions means you knowing misrepresent God based on inaccurate and incomplete info.

Why? Who says they are fallacies? Your problem exists in your own statement: 'God is unable to know what free will agents will do.'

How are we able to know that someone is able to walk on water? Someone did!
How are we able to know that God is able to know the future actions of free will agents? Because God already did it!

it is important for you to know that we must be careful what we say, or we will end up like Job. Covering our mouths and saying "I spoke what I did not know."

A good point for us both.

I only speak what I know. I know that God has predicted the future accurately, that he has not predicted it accurately, and thus his future knowledge is not total or unlimited.

When did He not speak it accurately? Tyre, perhaps? Nineveh? You agree they were going to be destroyed unless a condition was met. This argument assumes God foreknew their impending outcome. :think:

Rob, you try to turn this into a debate. You try to counter me by saying "You do it too," thinking that will get me, but you never answer what I want... evidence. You can call me a hypocrite all day long, but it still demands an answer.

Won't you accept the fact that 'you do it to' as evidence? If not, why not?

I am trying to show you why your evidence thus far is faulty. If you have other evidence, present it. Otherwise, stop saying what you do not know to be true.

Present the evidence of your position without assuming foreknowledge as you must in all your arguments concerning prophecy. Since you obviously are unable to understand that you do this then pick some other argument with more substance.

As for the accusations that I am a hypocrite by accusing you of doing what I do, I again say that I have submitted evidence for all 7 points. This being post 5 just about point one is proof of point one. You have no solid evidence yet you preach anyway

.

What evidence? Open Theism has only one argument. If the future is settled then there isn't any free will is their one and only argument. Their support for this argument confuses the terms able and willing. There is nothing else is there?

Rob, I know you may still think me a hypocrite, but I have considered myself. Do not let your opinion of me overcast the examination of your own heart. Have you or have you not spoken things about God and his future knowledge without evidence of what speak about?​

There is a certain amount of conjecture when we speak of God existing 'outside of time'; but I haven't often used that argument. So no, the stories of Judas and Peter alone, are evidence of what I speak of even though they fall into your self reliant 'fallacies'.

If you have, cover your mouth.

Read Carefully what God Asked Job when he spoke things he had no knowledge about. Take it in, God is serous about what we say and is angered when we speak what we do not know...

Job 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.​

:think: Listen to what He says, Patman!

4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,​

How did God create the Earth? Is this logically possible? Can't you see that what is logically possible to you is the same as logically understandable to you? He surpasses our understanding and therefore our logic.

Please present your evidence. You claim to have some, are you going to look again? If you can not find any without fault, consider mine.

You are quick to find tiny escape clauses. You are good at pointing out small discrepancies that in the bigger picture fall apart.

Like what?

If i were to give you an example to make a point, you completely miss the point and attack the example.

What good is the example towards you conclusion if the example is incorrect?

My advise to you is to listen to the meanings of things. And do not make up answers or alternatives when there is no evidence to justify your efforts.

I have valid evidence, and your statement applies towards open theists. What evidence do you have which isn't disputable?

Alternative theories are not evidence, evidence is evidence. Present scripture for your ideas. Otherwise, cover your mouth like Job wisely did. You are so full of ideas, but no scripture to back it. Rob, God doesn't need new thinking on the word, he needs us to honor his word and preach it as it is presented.

Your three fallacies have become your stumbling block. Quit finding truth within yourself and look at the big picture. I'm willing to discuss any argument you have which doesn't assume foreknowledge as its foundation. I've already read the verses which open theism has latched on to. Once the verses which presume foreknowledge are eliminated, the other verses must be taken out of context to make Our Lord look ignorant. I find these interpretations to be in direct contradiction to what God says about Himself to Job.

Truly Your Friend.

Appreciatively,
Rob

p.s. arguing a position based upon 'limiting factors' is nonsence when you are discussing a being who is limitless. By making this argument you are indeed making God into the exact limited being which Bacon believes in. Consider this argument's validity.

 

[RobE]

A quick note to all 'Open' Theists:

I urge you to consider all the things which man has considered to be 'logically impossible' throughout the ages. For example, going faster than sound or light, creating something from nothing, bringing life from the inert, flying, going to the moon, etc, etc., etc........

Once the 'logically impossible' occurs one time then we know that it is no longer logically impossible. My point is that Man's logical possibilities require understanding as to the mechanism of occurence or proof that it occured.

Rob

 

[Delmar]

A quick note to all 'Open' Theists:

I urge you to consider all the things which man has considered to be 'logically impossible' throughout the ages. For example, going faster than sound or light, creating something from nothing, bringing life from the inert, flying, going to the moon, etc, etc., etc........

Once the 'logically impossible' occurs one time then we know that it is no longer logically impossible. My point is that Man's logical possibilities require understanding as to the mechanism of occurence or proof that it occured.

Rob

Like God changing his mind? :thumb:

 

[zapp]

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
3 It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.

Who knows whether he will not turn and relent, and leave a blessing behind him, a grain offering and a drink offering for the Lord your God?

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate.