God_Is_Truth
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Philetus said:Or how about Boyd's book "Repenting From Religion". I'm on my second read ... WOW ... talk about the love of God. Have you read it?
Philetus
A fantastic book :up:
Philetus said:Or how about Boyd's book "Repenting From Religion". I'm on my second read ... WOW ... talk about the love of God. Have you read it?
Philetus
Who are you to assume the Holy Spirit is not active when the Word is heard and rejected? The Holy Spirit doesn’t CAUSE (or make) anyone respond in the since that you continually use the word CAUSE. The Holy Spirit persuades and inspires. Anyone with free will can resist.RobE said:And the question....
Why didn't the Holy Spirit use the Word to stir the reprobates spirit and CAUSE him to respond to the truth?
Again I ask,
Rob
godrulz said:Did not even hear of 'Repenting from Religion'.
Mixed reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065062/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155
I think the principles in my post were as much Arminian as anything. A book on debating Calvinism brings up these differences (Hunt is not an Open Theist).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590522737/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155
Likewise, Olson does a good exegetical job, also from a non- Open Theist:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962485047/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155
God_Is_Truth said:A fantastic book :up:
RobE said:Well actually I was responding to your statement in the last post.....
Godrulz said: The gift of faith in the Corinthian context is a spiritual gift not related to salvation, but to empowerment subsequent to salvation.
I figured you meant 'prior to salvation' which would be less Calvinistic, but it isn't what you said there. That's why I asked for the clarification. Repentant faith has a beginning as well.
Anyway, would you agree with Philetus in saying that....
2. The Holy Spirit uses the Word (hearing the truth) to stir my spirit and cause me to respond to the Truth about God.
Basically stating that the Holy Spirit is the 'cause' of your response?
Don't get hasty now. I know we've been over a lot of subject matter, but this is important no matter you position.
YBIC,
Rob Mauldin
Again my official position is here.....
My position would say that through the use of foreknowledge God would know what level of grace would be sufficient for each individual. What level of Grace would be sufficient you is different than the amount of Grace that I would require since we have individual personalities. That same Grace would have to not overwhelm us in order for us to remain 'free'. That precise balance is where justice is reached. Too little and we didn't have a 'fair' chance and too much we didn't 'freely' choose. Foreknowledge of the effects of Grace are neccessary to retain justice in my way of thinking. Foreknowledge of our eventual reprobation is countered by God gave us enough and foreknowledge of our eventual glorification is countered by God didn't force us. This exact balance leaves us with responsibility. It requires an understanding of all influences and counterbalances whithin creation to obtain. Foreknowledge is the key.
CREDITS: ROB. If you hadn't qualified your "official position" with 'foreknowledge is the key" I could have repped you instead of ripped you. :chuckle: And I hate to admit it but if God not pushing his Grace to far (to the point of making it 'irresistible') were tweaked a little you might have an argument. Because the moment grace becomes irresistible (coercive) it is no longer Grace. And you will never convince me that grace is insufficient for some is Biblical.
Phil said:Rob, you have made it clear that you believe that Faith is a cause and no one can resist the Spirit or you are just arguing for argument's sake. It is time for you to drop it here or go start your own thread. It has been interesting.
godrulz said:Who said it is not? There are many people that would respond in repentant faith if we would get the gospel to them and preach it persuasively with love and authority. Jesus said the harvest is ripe and that we are to go into it and send workers. Those who are willfully blind and blinded by the enemy suppress the truth by their wickedness. Truth has been made plain to them (Romans 1). Individuals are responsible for the light they have. If they reject light and love darkness, further light would only harden and condemn them more. God is not a far off from anyone (Paul preaching re: unknown God).
Philetus said:
Who are you to assume the Holy Spirit is not active when the Word is heard and rejected? The Holy Spirit doesn’t CAUSE (or make) anyone respond in the since that you continually use the word CAUSE. The Holy Spirit persuades and inspires. Anyone with free will can resist.
If you don't get that by now then you have just refused the work of the Holy Spirit to stir you to believe the truth.
Rob, you have made it clear that you believe that Faith is a cause and no one can resist the Spirit or you are just arguing for argument's sake. It is time for you to drop it here or go start your own thread. It has been interesting.
No middle ground.
Philetus
Bacon said:Hey, I knew a girl named Grace once - and she was irresistable!
But when it comes to theology, "grace" is a word that has been ruined by misuse and should be stricken from people's bibles, like the words "heaven" and "spirit" and "Hell" and "testament" and a host of others.
The underlying word just means "favor" or "approval" or perhaps sometimes "as a favor" or "in undeserved kindness." Grace is not a force, let alone an irresistable force.
This position of favor is the corrolary of faith:
Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Bacon said:One does not quench a person:
1 Thess 5:
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
The word "spirit" does not appear in either the Hebrew or Greek texts, since they have no such word in either language. The correct translation in every case should be "breath."
The verses in this section are closely related:
19 Do not supress the [divine] breath.
20 Don't disregard the immediate divine communications through his mouthpieces.
21 Subject all to critical evaluation; that which is good, take to heart.
22 Stay away from every form of evil.
*******
4570 sbennumi sbennumi sben’-noo-mee
a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; TDNT-7:165,1009; v
AV-quench 7, go out 1; 8
1) to extinguish, quench
1a) of fire or things on fire
1a1) to be quenched, to go out
1b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1b1) of divine influence
*******
RobE said:Wow! Do you ever read your own posts? I just need to ask where did you get the idea that I said that Grace was irresistible? I'll post my comment here once more.....
My position would say that through the use of foreknowledge God would know what level of grace would be sufficient for each individual. What level of Grace would be sufficient you is different than the amount of Grace that I would require since we have individual personalities. That same Grace would have to not overwhelm us in order for us to remain 'free'. That precise balance is where justice is reached. Too little and we didn't have a 'fair' chance and too much we didn't 'freely' choose. Foreknowledge of the effects of Grace are neccessary to retain justice in my way of thinking. Foreknowledge of our eventual reprobation is countered by 'God gave us enough'; and foreknowledge of our eventual glorification is countered by 'God didn't force us'. This exact balance leaves us with responsibility. It requires an understanding of all influences and counterbalances whithin creation to obtain. Foreknowledge is the key.
Now the comment 'And you will never convince me that grace is insufficient for some is Biblical' comes from where? Have I once said that the Bible says that grace is insufficient for some; or any for that matter? Do you read my posts and try to figure out what I'm saying or is it just an ongoing tirade of 'Rob,you don't understand the o.v.'? BTW, have you read the opening post of this thread?
Why? Is this your thread? It is pertinent to the discussion beCAUSE grace, faith, and free will are inexorably tied together. Open Theism says that free will is the key to faith which CAUSES one to accept the grace of God.
As far as your statement 'Rob, you have made it clear that you believe that Faith is a cause' (which is true according to both of our positions); and the second part '....and no one can resist the Spirit' (which I never said) shows me that you don't in fact; read, think about, or respond to my statements. And you had the guts to accuse me of being in a box. :angel:
Thanks for not listening,
Rob
p.s. Who cares about getting repped? I'm not a child. I spent 8 years in college, 2 years in seminary, and spent the last twenty years serving; and you expect me to be concerned whether some juvenile in Podunk, Idaho; who isn't able to comprehend basic algebra, likes what I have to say and wants to give me a warm 'fuzzy'. :dizzy:
You Gotta Be Kidding.
Bacon,Bacon said:One does not quench a person:
1 Thess 5:
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
The word "spirit" does not appear in either the Hebrew or Greek texts, since they have no such word in either language. The correct translation in every case should be "breath."
The verses in this section are closely related:
19 Do not supress the [divine] breath.
20 Don't disregard the immediate divine communications through his mouthpieces.
21 Subject all to critical evaluation; that which is good, take to heart.
22 Stay away from every form of evil.
*******
4570 sbennumi sbennumi sben’-noo-mee
a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; TDNT-7:165,1009; v
AV-quench 7, go out 1; 8
1) to extinguish, quench
1a) of fire or things on fire
1a1) to be quenched, to go out
1b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1b1) of divine influence
*******
godrulz said:One does grieve a person. It says the Holy Spirit was lied to, the Spirit speaks, etc. He is given personal attributes including will, intellect, and emotions.
Are you a JW, Christadelphian, or what? Do you deny the Trinity?
godrulz said:Scripture warns about grieving and quenching the Spirit. God's will can be resisted (Lk. 7:30).
If Rob is a free will theist, why is he inconsistently supporting determinism?
Have some rep, my friend.
Can you help me on the "What is time" thread? At least see if Aimiel or myself is making any sense?
RobE said:Well I was responding to your previous post.
Matt. 13:18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Luke 8:11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Why is it true that the ground wasn't prepared prior to the sowing in all instances?
Transitioning back to my own position,
Rob
Dear John letterp.s. Who cares about getting repped? I'm not a child. I spent 8 years in college, 2 years in seminary, and spent the last twenty years serving; and you expect me to be concerned whether some juvenile in Podunk, Idaho; who isn't able to comprehend basic algebra, likes what I have to say and wants to give me a warm 'fuzzy'.
You Gotta Be Kidding.
Classic smack!!!Philetus said:
Dear John letter
Rob,
You need to know that I have given much thought to what I’m about to post. I have no anger or ill feelings toward you nor am I offended by your rant. Still you haven't gotten your facts right .... again. Good advice for you might be: don't fly off the handle when you are full of bologna.
Your reputation seems to be very important to you, otherwise why would you list your accomplishments as you did? Not the little green numbers, that other one. Like Paul, I’m reluctant to join in your boasting but if we are going to boast in the flesh then okeedookee. I finished college in four years, and probably already have at least two more degrees than you. I also have you out numbered nearly two to one in years of service. I had a double major in math in high school and am scheduled to finish my DMin next year. But, all that is absolutely nothing to me compared to knowing Christ in the power of His resurrection and participating in the Openness of God -- *sharing in his suffering and looking forward to the resurrection from the dead. I wouldn’t give you a warm ‘fuzzy’.That wouldn't be Christ like of me. First your thinking is to fuzzy already and second if your brain got any warmer it would melt.
And by the way, I’m in Indiana and you may not be a child but you are a punk. Get the chip off your shoulder and stick it back in your head where it belongs.It might stop the leak. And if I were you I would be a little more careful about giving people a piece of your mind. You are in danger of running out soon.
Just speaking the truth in love: you are now on ignore. :shut:
Sorry to have troubled and offended you, my young opponent
Philetus