ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
- Start date
- Status
Who's giving you the negative rep points? If it's the non-Christians, then you have a point. However, if it's the Christians, then you are obviously dong something very wrong.epistemaniac said:to whom it may concern...
given all my negative rep points, I must be doing something right!!
Joh 17:14 esv I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Luk 6:22-23 esv Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!
(23) Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.
Joh 15:18-19 esv If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
(19) If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
2Th 3:3-5 esv But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
(4) And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
(5) May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
blessings
You have shown me nothing to prove that we cannot know how God operates. Only that there are things we do not yet know.epistemaniac said:
Re-read what I said. And remember that time is not a substance that one can not exist in or out of. And space is not a substance either. All that exists, exists within a space.
Philetus
New member
Clete said:
Horseshoes and hand grenades, I guess. Won't fly with theology nonetheless.
Hey Clete,
Some good exchange in the last month. I've been reading and there has been a lot to catch up on. You guys have been all over the place. Thanks for the faithfulness.
Later, Philetus
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
I believe the Open View of God is the best view about God and His works.
In the creation of man, it shows a responsible character.
Man has real choice rather than making man a semi robot.
It results in moral responsibility for man.
These three concepts cause freedom for man and contingency to exist.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable. There are some things God does not know before hand. Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thought or said something would happen, it may not happen under the law of freedom.
In Jer 3:7 “God said She will return to Me! But she did not return. “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.”
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41). Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken (Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5). God broke a promise sworn to the fathers of Israel because of disobedience (Num 14:23,30,34).
When God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him, Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Bob Hill
In the creation of man, it shows a responsible character.
Man has real choice rather than making man a semi robot.
It results in moral responsibility for man.
These three concepts cause freedom for man and contingency to exist.
The future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable. There are some things God does not know before hand. Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.
Even when God thought or said something would happen, it may not happen under the law of freedom.
In Jer 3:7 “God said She will return to Me! But she did not return. “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.”
God is limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41). Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken (Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5). God broke a promise sworn to the fathers of Israel because of disobedience (Num 14:23,30,34).
When God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him, Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Isaiah was sent by God to Hezekiah. He prophesied by the word of the Lord to Hezekiah that he would die soon (2 Ki 20:1-6), but he didn’t.
2 Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ” 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying, 3 “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”
God responded to Hezekiah's prayers.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
2 Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ” 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying, 3 “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”
God responded to Hezekiah's prayers.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Not just individual verses but the whole Bible! Relationships (i.e love relationships) are the most important thing in all existence! Relationship is a foundational attribute of God Himself for God is love. And relationship as a concept utterly refutes the settled view.Delmar said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
Philetus
New member
Clete said:
And thank God for scripture, but not just scripture ... the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, as well! Just think ... a relationship with the awesome creator God of the universe. What settled view? The future is as open as the promises of God in Christ. I get excited about seeing Him face to face while, His work in you guys blows my hair back!
Philetus
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
When I got saved, I was discipled by two neat guys who were strong Calvinists. Because of their influence, I believed what they explained to me, the view that God was outside of time. However, after I studied the Bible, I realized that I had no biblical basis for believing that. I came to understand that the whole concept of God outside of time and seeing all things as an eternal now was from Greek philosophy and, in modern times, from the theory of relativity.
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it.
The Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God about 30 times. A passage that really affected me greatly is found in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word, repent, relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe, if the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
When I read God’s Word, God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. To Him, time is no problem. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists.
In Christ,
Bob
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it.
The Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God about 30 times. A passage that really affected me greatly is found in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word, repent, relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe, if the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
When I read God’s Word, God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. To Him, time is no problem. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists.
In Christ,
Bob
epistemaniac
New member
Just a quick note to the folks I kniow from the forunms… I am disabled ...the pain is realy getting out of control… trhey gave me triple the amount of morphine and kept me at the same does of flexaril, vicodine and added valium… but it looks like I am going to have to go into the hospital today… please pray… we have no insurance and that they would find something quickly and that whatever treatment might not be to expensive either… blessings
- Status