ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

Clete,

This is all I have on that subject.

You Cannot Live the Christian Life

In my years of being a Christian, I have found out one thing to be very certain. You cannot live the Christian life. This is an absolute. I have found this to be the truth after many years. I have tried everything you can imagine. I haven’t really made much progress. I can remember when our church was trying to follow Brother Lawrence’s principles about practicing the presence of God. I have been meditating on the word of God for years and years and years and years. Yet when I look at my attitudes inside – I’m not talking about the outward appearance, I can make that look pretty good, sometimes – but when I look at the inside, I believe I’ve made very little progress. Look at Peter. He declared before the crucifixion, “No matter if everybody forsakes you, I won’t.” Well, after he denied Christ three times, the rooster crowed and Peter realized that he couldn’t live the Christian life either – until the power of the Holy Spirit came upon him at Pentecost. Then He was a different man. What was the secret Peter found out? He knew everything Jesus taught him in three years of discipleship. But until the Holy Spirit came in power, he was bankrupt. Do you identify with Peter and me? Have you tried to live the Christian life only to find it’s impossible?

I can remember preaching a sermon titled, “The Christian Life Isn’t Difficult, It’s Impossible.” The conclusion of that sermon was to feed on God’s word. Although it helped, it still wasn’t the answer. So, where can we look for help?

The first place I think of is the epistles of Paul. In the middle of the record of his struggle to live the Christian life, Paul said in Philippians 3:10, “that I may know Him”. That was his life long goal. For the last two years, the main theme in my discipleship groups has been to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. Finally, that’s my goal. I say, “finally,” because it has taken me so many years to realize this vital truth. Just as important, I realize that we must look at the only one who lived the Christian life in this world. If we want to see how Jesus Christ lived His life in this world, the gospels is the place to go. If we are to know Him, we have to go back to the gospels to see what He was like, what He did, and what He said, because I want to get to know Him better.

It’s amazing what we find. Even the Son said He could not live the Christian life. Do you realize this? The Son actually said that? Now let’s stop and think about that for a minute. You might think that you could maybe live the Christian life. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God the Son, when He was on the earth as a human, said He could not live the Christian life. In John 5:19,20, He said, “the Son can do nothing of Himself”. Now, if He is trying to live the Christian life, how can He do it? He says He can’t do it, doesn’t He? (I’m indebted to Gene Edwards’ first six chapters of his book, The Secret to the Christian Life, The Seed Sowers Christian Books Publishing House, Box 3368, Auburn, Maine, 04212, 1991.)

It continues, “but what He sees the Father do, 20 for the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does.” I hate to tell you – after being saved for 45 years, being a pastor for 24 and a youth leader the other 21 – but this is a totally knew idea to me. It’s like – where have I been? Where have I been? Christ, out of Himself, could do nothing. When we think on this and then realize that Christ could do nothing from Himself, it is a liberating knowledge. That’s why I can’t do it.

As we continue reading what our Lord said and thought, the impact for the Christian life is astonishing. In John 5:30, He said, “I can from Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” So, Jesus Christ could not do it Himself. He always relied on the Father. His whole time on earth was lived in communion with the Father. Constantly, everything He did – He was always looking to the Father. The Father was indwelling Him by means of the Spirit. And yet we think – call me if you think I’m wrong – we think we can live the Christian life – we can do that if we do the right things. I know – I hate to say it – I know that’s what I thought. And the end of that trail is failure, and I’ve experienced that.

Can you imagine this: Although He was the God of the universe, incarnate, He couldn’t do anything by Himself. And yet, we think we can live the Christian life if we do the right things. Christ’s whole “Christian life” was lived by the power of His Father. I could have titled this sermon, “The Secret of the Christian Life.” But so many others have written books with that title, and they didn’t help me, so I didn’t want to tell you that. I want to tell you “You Cannot Live the Christian Life.” You can’t! You can’t!

Now, even in His death, consider this. He was looking at His death. It was going to be soon. So He said to His disciples, “Let’s go to the garden, I want to pray.” So what did He say when He prayed? He said, “If it’s possible, let this cup pass from Me.” But He didn’t stop there, did He? He was in constant communion with His Father, and He said, “Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done.” Wow! He conformed His will to the Father’s. His death was according to the Father’s will, not His own. That’s why He said in John 8:28, again, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He (the Messiah) and that I do nothing from Myself”.

When we think we’re doing the Christian life, what do we do? We say, oh, well, I can do that, and we pat ourselves on the back for being such a good Christian. Yet, Christ said, “I do nothing from Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.” He was in communion with the Father constantly, and the Father was telling Him what to do. And He always did it.

Our Lord was in constant fellowship with the Father. It seems that God inspired John to write about the secret of the Christian life, and I expected to find it in Paul. Well, it’s there, too. But the real stuff, here, is in John, because it says over and over that Jesus Christ, the Son of God lived His life on earth in total dependence on the Father. The theme of total dependence continues in John 14:10,11, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.”

In the same way, people may not be able to believe that the Father is dwelling in us. Just reflect and put yourself in your routine for a week. People are watching you, and they say “Wow! look at the works of God.” And yet, that’s what Christ said. And that’s what He wants us to be. He wants the works of the Father to be displayed in us rather than our fleshy works. We can produce those good works to some extent by following rules, but let’s not fool ourselves – they’re works of the flesh, not the Father’s. We can not live the Christian life. We can not live the Christian life, but when they see His works in us they should believe – that is, if they are His works rather than our own fleshy works.

He can live it in us. He can live this life in us. You may think, “Well, what’s the difference? He’s living it, but I’m doing it. No! No! No! That’s wrong! That’s where I’ve had it all wrong. In Philippians 2:12,13 God inspired Paul to write, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
We produce it in our lives by concentrating on loving Him. Then He does it. Without our part, God is hindered. Consider Romans 8:28. [NKJ] “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [I disagree. My translation follows.] We know that He works with those loving God, all things, sunergei, unto good, with those who are called according to [His] purpose. God works with us. We have to work with God. When we love Him, He can produce His life in us. He is always working in the believer, but we do not always let Him work in us. Look up the word sunergei, Strong’s 4903, sunergeo. You’ll see it means “work together with, work with”.

God will live it in us, if we let Him, for later, in John 14:23, He said to His apostles, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” Now who is the “We”, here? First you read the Holy Spirit is coming, then the Father, then, We – God is coming. He came to live in you and me. And we’re not awestruck by this. We think, yea, of course.

Finally, in John 15:5, He said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” No matter how we look at that. With the emphasis on the “can”, or the “nothing”, we still can do nothing. I have felt and thought I could do many things without total reliance upon God. Haven’t you? It’s bankrupt, just like Peter, yet we seem to think we can do spiritual things without Him. Therefore, I believe the only way we can live the Christian life, is to follow Christ’s directions when He was on earth and when He ascended and spoke again through the Apostle Paul. In John 17:26, Jesus said, “I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it”. Why? “that the love with which You loved Me may be in them”. Now this is awesome – that God the Father’s love, the love He had for the Son, which is eternal love, can be in us. Wow! And Jesus Christ would be in us, “and I in them.”

Not everyone wants to live for God. When man, in general, did not want God in his life, God wrote Romans 1:28 through Paul, “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, (thinking about God) God gave them over to a debased mind,” He didn’t give them a debased mind, He just allowed them to have the results of their behavior. “to do those things which are not fitting.” We have seen the results – the debauchery of a godless society.

However, you know that God had a solution for our inability. What did He do? He saved us. He demonstrated that love by sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins while we were still sinners. After He saved us and sealed us, according to Rom 5:5, “the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

Now I’m an unemotional person by temperament. I’m not a feeling person at all in my temperament. But I have been experiencing a miracle in my life – a flowing of God’s love into my being, and it’s coming out. I don’t even have to think, “O.K., I’ve gotta love my wife. It’s just coming out. And it’s neat. And I’m loving my congregation. But it’s amazing; I know it’s not me. I just say, “Whoa, what’s happening here?” And I know what the secret is. The secret is loving God. Concentrate on loving God.

Many times when I go to bed at night, I tell God why I love Him. The next thing I know, it’s morning. But now, I enjoy it so much I don’t go to sleep right away. I tell Him, these are the reasons I love you. Before, I used to run out of things. When you lie there telling Him, I think He loves to hear it. I think He loves to hear our praise from a pure heart. And, what happens? I’ll tell you what happens – He produces a miracle in your soul. He generates love in your soul and you start loving. Oh! it feels great.

But this flowing of the love of God into all parts of our life can be quenched. Here’s how it can be quenched. Your mate does or says something to you that is unexpected. You consider it negative. When you are married to someone who is exactly the opposite, like Joan and me, there will be many areas for potential conflict. If we have not been communing with the Lord when this happens, we react in the flesh, and even though our outer actions may be all right, the inner attitudes can be awful. This grieves the Spirit.

No rules can produce life. That’s exactly what Galatians 3:21 says: “If there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.” But although I realize that this verse is referring to salvation, the same can be said for the Christian life. There’s only one thing we can do. And I believe this is an absolute. We can concentrate on loving Him and having fellowship with Him. That’s what we can do. So, there is an “I can.” We can concentrate on loving God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. I can do it as I feed on His word and the Holy Spirit enables me to love Him by faith. As faith is generated in me, then, by an act of faith I can love God. That’s why I must stay in constant communion with my Father and concentrate on loving Him. The Father is the one who does it, for 1 Thessalonians 3:12 says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you.” When we let Him do this. When we concentrate on loving Him, we will be loving. We will find that this is the key to the Christian life.

That’s what Paul’s prayer for us is all about in Ephesians 3:14-19. This is my favorite passage in Ephesians. When we meditate on it, Christ is formed in our lives. When Ephesians 3:14-19 becomes real in our lives, we experience His life. Paul wrote,

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He [the Father] would give you, according to the riches of His glory, [Now you know, He only owns a few things.] to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith [by faith]; that you, being rooted and grounded in [theology?] love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height; 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge.

When I see some of the things coming out of me – it surpasses my knowledge. It blows my mind. I see miracles happening in my life. Miracles! And I thought the day of miracles was over. But it’s the stuff that’s beyond knowledge, and anything beyond knowledge is a miracle. It’s beyond my understanding.

that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Wow! Oh man! Do you see why I love this passage? We are being filled with all the fullness of God. We actually are the fullness of God according to Ephesians 1:23. And God is filling us in every way if we re loving Him. Does that mean you have to get into the word and meditate on it every day? No. Now that sure is strange coming from this writer. But, I think it means that when you trusted Jesus Christ, you heard that God loved you so much that He sent His Son to die for you. In Romans 5:8, you see that He demonstrated His love to you by sending His son to die for you. When you received your salvation, you received His love. If you would just meditate on that! Just think, if you were illiterate, you couldn’t read, but you could still meditate on loving God, and God would produce His love in you. Now, I believe reading and meditating on the word helps a lot. It helps you see who God is, how He acts, and how wonderful He is. Then you can meditate on more things about His person. I couldn’t lie in bed last night and just say, “You gave your Son to die for me,” and go no further. I can go on and tell Him, because, in fact I told Him last night, “I love You because you’re the risky God. You were willing to create free agents.” Wow! I can’t believe that. I wouldn’t do it that way. I’d want to control everybody. I would make them little robots.

That fullness of God of verse 19 is the Christian life lived by God almighty in us. When that continues to happen and we love Him, and He continues to fill us – and I do say when, not if – on a regular basis, God will live the Christian life through Jesus Christ who is formed in us. Even though Paul had not attained the perfect Christian life, that’s what he was striving for. He wrote Philippians about four years before he was killed by Rome. At that time he said he had not attained it, but His goal was to pursue the prize of the high calling. And this high calling is the Christian life.

What is your goal? Loving God with all your might is the answer. Anything else will end in failure. I know, I tried everything else. Don’t be stupid like I was. I struggled for so many years with little benefit. Concentrate on knowing and loving the one person who will produce the Christian life in you. God is the only one who knows your heart. When you are constantly in tune with Him, it’s amazing how you’ll change. You won’t do those besetting sins that no one knows about except you – and God. Why don’t you make a commitment to love Him as much as you can.

Loved by God, and trying to love Him,
Bob

:BRAVO:

:first: POTD! :first:

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

As a pastor, I get a lot of questions from different people. A young man going to Metropolitan State College, here in Denver, asked me if he had to be baptized to be saved. Some evangelists, from the Church of Christ on campus, told him he had to be water baptized to be saved.

Another woman wondered if her addiction (which she was fighting) would keep her from being saved.

Another guy told one of my young men that we were heretics. That we made salvation too easy. That we must follow Christ’s teachings. These kinds of questions and statements cause me great concern. There is too much confusion about what a person has to do to receive salvation.

When these questions surfaced in Galatia, Paul was amazed. Gal 1:6-9 I’m amazed that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another (of the same kind); but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

When these questions come up, and they seem to all the time, what should we do?

If Paul was inspired to write, “even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” Since Paul wrote that, then, should we get upset? I don’t mean, should we act in an unchristian manner. I mean, should we feel that way? Is it right? I believe the answer is, Yes! Why? Because men’s lives are at stake.

Paul was “afraid for” the ones in Galatia. Notice what he wrote in, Gal 4:9-11 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Was he concerned about the salvation of all of them? No, because he had just written this to them: Gal 4:4-7 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

They knew the figure of adoption that Paul used was from current Greek life. The Greek law that Alexander established when he conquered this area, said, the adopted son could not be disinherited. This adoption will be realized when we are raptured before the tribulation. Romans 8:23 describes our adoption, somewhat: “Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

Ephesians 1:5 clearly states the security we members of the body of Christ have: “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

What is predestination? Those whom God predestined were believers. They, we, cannot lose it if He predestined that those who believe are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself. What a spiritual blessing for us in this Dispensation of Grace.

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Thank you pastor Hill for posting "You Cannot Live the Christian Life"! that was the exact thing I had in mind. It is just terribly traggic that so few Christians have ever heard such a thing before.


Godrulz,

Do you understand why I asked pastor Hill to post that article?

The Christian life is 'impossible' apart from a vital relationship with the indwelling Christ. Paul talked much about living the Christian life (race, walk, etc.). There is a difference between trying to be saved by being religious or 'Christian' and the life we live subsequent to conversion as we walk in the light as He is in the light or live by the Spirit vs the flesh. There is a life to live that glorifies God because we are saved, not in order to be saved. It is for His glory and by His grace/power.

 

[godrulz]

The Church of Christ is wrong in its views of baptism. They have made it a legalistic work. I also refute baptismal regeneration.

There is also pastoral wisdom for believers who struggle that does not necessitate OSAS views.

UNBELIEF is a unique sin that cuts one off from the grace of God. One is either a believer or an unbeliever. I do not think it is biblical to say one can be a blatant unbeliever at death, but still saved, just because they once believed. You see how the so-called 'circumcision' could fall away or apostasize. In your view, two living believers in the same first century church have diametrically opposed conditions for salvation. This is arbitrary, in my mind. Quoting verses about the great security of the believer (inherent in the Gk. present, continous tense is the idea of a state that continues) are not disputed. They simply do not apply to those who are unbelievers (and persist in that godless state).

 

[Clete]

The Christian life is 'impossible' apart from a vital relationship with the indwelling Christ. Paul talked much about living the Christian life (race, walk, etc.). There is a difference between trying to be saved by being religious or 'Christian' and the life we live subsequent to conversion as we walk in the light as He is in the light or live by the Spirit vs the flesh. There is a life to live that glorifies God because we are saved, not in order to be saved. It is for His glory and by His grace/power.

Godrulz,

It is absolutely vital that you get this. You rightly deny that we cannot be saved by trying to live a righteous life but what you seem to be missing is the fact that we cannot maintain or enhance or grow our relationship with God by our trying to live a righteous life either. We are sanctified by the exact same thing that saved us; that being grace through faith PLUS NOTHING!!! Any attempt we make to add to the work God did on our behalf for EITHER our salvation or our sanctification will be met with abject failure. It is simply not within your power to live righteously, you cannot do it because your flesh has not yet been redeemed. For us it is not to believe to be saved and then try our best to live lives pleasing to God but rather it is for us to believe to be saved and then to continue to believe that because we are in Him was are pleasing to God and cannot be otherwise. It is this belief, this faith, which allows God, by the power of His Holy Spirit, to live His life through us and thereby produce the fruit of the Spirit (i.e. good works) in our daily walk. As soon as we try to do it ourselves, we are cut off from the source of that fruit and we fail even if it looks superficially like we succeeded.

Like Pastor Hill says in the article, we can sometimes make it look on the outside like we are doing pretty well but God doesn't look at the outside. We might have a whole resume of good works that we can present but if the source of that work was anything other than faith then those works will profit you nothing on judgment day; they will be burned up.

The effort for today's Christian is not in doing good works but in believing the gospel. The good works will come but not by effort. A tomato plant does not toil to produce its fruit; it simply produces fruit by its nature. The advantage tomatoes have over us is that there is nothing in the heart of a tomato plant at war with producing good fruit. We, however, have the flesh to contend with which is at war with the Spirit that is within us. Crucifying it can only be done by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ in whom we have died.

This whole "crucifying the flesh" idea is a concept I've heard batted around in churches my whole life practically and I never understood it. It seems like I was constantly asking, "How does one crucify their flesh?" I never understood it and I don't thing I ever would have understood it until I understood the unique message and ministry of the apostle Paul and his Gospel of the Mystery. The key is not for me to crucify my flesh but that it has already been crucified in Him. All there is for me to do is believe it. The fruit, all fruit that will last, comes as a result of that belief.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lee_merrill]

The key is not for me to crucify my flesh but that it has already been crucified in Him...

Yes, in a sense, but also in another sense, I believe we also are called to experience this.

"The death of the cross was not natural, but violent. Such is the death of sin: it dies not of its own accord, as nature dieth in the aged; for if the Spirit of God did not kill it, it would live to eternity. Sin can live to eternity in the fire of God’s wrath; so that either it must die a violent death by the hand of the Spirit, or it never dies at all."

"Believers have communion with Christ in his death; they die with him: 'I am crucified with Christ' (Gal. 2:20); that is, the death of Christ has a real killing and mortifying influence upon the lusts and corruptions of my heart and nature. True it is, he died for sin one way, and we die to sin another way: he died to expiate it, we die to it when we mortify it." (John Flavel)

1 Pt. 4:1-2 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

So this verse may imply here, that to "suffer in the body" results in being "done with sin," that is, suffering borne well, is a crucial aspect.

One time Amy Carmichael was having difficulty with a fellow missionary, and she asked the Lord about it, and the Lord said "See in it, a chance to die."

"Let perseverance finish its work, so that you may become perfect and complete" as James wrote, which implies patience under suffering.

"I think God wants to make me pure gold," [Ponnammal] said, "so He is burning out the dross, teaching me the meaning of the fire, the burnt offering, the death of the self-part of me" (one of Amy Carmichael's companions).

Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold. (Job)

"You must develop the mind to suffer," said Samuel Lam of China to a visitor. "But how?" he was asked. "Pray!" he replied. "And don't grumble. And don't complain."

Php. 2:14-15 Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

Clete: Anecdotally, some believers struggle in their faith and walk with God. They do not experience freedom and seem more fleshly than spiritual. Others glorify God and love Him and others passionately. The Church of Corinth and Rome is a good case study. Sanctification is automatic in one sense, but not in another sense. You have to do something with all the commands, exhortations, use of the words 'obedience', 'yielding', 'walking', etc. in Pauline theology (and others).

You are contrasting self-righteousness in one's own strength with being in Christ.

I am suggesting that what we do or do not do flows out of our being in Christ and is by yielding to Him and His grace/power. It is a dependence on Him, not self. This does not negate personal responsibility or volition. So, I think you have a false dichotomy.

Romans 6-8; 12 ff. is about sanctification; Rom. 4; 5 is about justification. They are not identical concepts.

Both our views must deal with pastors or believers who fornicate, adulterate, lie, steal, etc. It seems to me that my view resonates with Scripture and reality. Your view sounds theoretical and divorces doctrine from practice (which Paul did not do..the latter flowed from the former).

 

[Clete]

Clete: Anecdotally, some believers struggle in their faith and walk with God. They do not experience freedom and seem more fleshly than spiritual. Others glorify God and love Him and others passionately. The Church of Corinth and Rome is a good case study. Sanctification is automatic in one sense, but not in another sense. You have to do something with all the commands, exhortations, use of the words 'obedience', 'yielding', 'walking', etc. in Pauline theology (and others).

You are contrasting self-righteousness in one's own strength with being in Christ.

I am suggesting that what we do or do not do flows out of our being in Christ and is by yielding to Him and His grace/power. It is a dependence on Him, not self. This does not negate personal responsibility or volition. So, I think you have a false dichotomy.

Romans 6-8; 12 ff. is about sanctification; Rom. 4; 5 is about justification. They are not identical concepts.

Both our views must deal with pastors or believers who fornicate, adulterate, lie, steal, etc. It seems to me that my view resonates with Scripture and reality. Your view sounds theoretical and divorces doctrine from practice (which Paul did not do..the latter flowed from the former).

The only thing I can think of to say in response to this is to simply quote Paul. You would have been right at home at the church in Galatia...

Gal. 3:3 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?​

I am suggesting that what we do or do not do flows out of our being in Christ and is by yielding to Him and His grace/power. It is a dependence on Him, not self. This does not negate personal responsibility or volition. So, I think you have a false dichotomy.

Look, I'm not suggesting that God turns us into some sort of robot but that he changes our character.

The Christian life can be approached in two different directions.

1. We can say to ourselves that since we love God and want to live a life pleasing to Him, I am going to do this, this and that and I'm going to refrain from doing this, that and the other thing. In other words we can make ourselves a list of rules and then do our best to follow those rules and trust God tol cover the areas where we screw it up.

or

2. We can acknowledge that we have been forbidden to place ourselves under the law (any law) and that we wouldn’t be able to follow it even if we tried anyway and thus throw out the rule book and lean purely and only on God's ever sufficient grace to save us and to sanctify our daily walk (i.e. to live His life through us).

The vast majority of believers, yourself included, go for the 1st option and inevitably find failure as their constant companion. But the 2nd option is the very gospel itself. If the first option was the gospel there would have been no need for Paul. The "Gospel of the Mystery" would be a meaningless phrase because option one amount simply to a modified Judaism, which is precisely what Peter, James and John taught and wrote about. But the power of God Himself is found in the second option. When one realizes that they have been killed with Christ and that dead men don't need a set of rules to live by, suddenly Christ's life enters the believer and they find the power of His resurrection at work in their daily walk. All of which is done entirely by faith and faith alone. No amount of trying or self-discipline or counseling or worry or strife or guilty feelings or prayer meetings or church attendance or feeding the poor or reading the Bible any other such thing will help rid yourself of the besetting sins which you commit when you think you're alone. Only when you realize that you are perfectly acceptable to God as you are in Him because His grace is sufficient for you there ever be any hope of fruit that is pleasing to God being produced in your daily walk.

Now, does that mean that I think that we shouldn't go to church or pray or read the Bible or feed the poor so that God's grace might abound all the more? Certainly not! Paul was asked the exact same question. I know you're familiar with the following passage but don't just skim over it - actually read it and see how Paul answers this vitally important question...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.​

Verse eleven gives the key to making verse 12-13 happen! My theology is anything but theoretical godrulz! It is eminently practical! It is in fact telling you the ONLY way by which you can live the Christian life and do the things that we all as Christians want to do. We all want to do what is right and not do that which is wrong. What I'm trying so hard to get you to understand is not that I have a different idea about what right and wrong is but HOW to make it happen in your daily life. If you do not do it by faith and faith alone then you might as well not do it at all because any supposed success will have been of the flesh and will be burned up on the Day of Judgment. Paul was not talking in figurative language when he said that if you place yourself under the law (attempt to follow the rules) Christ will profit you nothing! Paul was not talking about salvation but about sanctification; he was talking about your daily walk. If you try to do it yourself, Christ will not help you and the power of Christ's resurrection will be unavailable to you and whatever good you accomplish in spite of yourself will be of no value because it was not of the Spirit but of the flesh (i.e. of the law)! Christ is either going to live His life though you or you are going to live your life in the flesh and never the twain shall meet! Your death in Him is necessary for His life to be lived through you. That is the only way it works.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[sentientsynth]

Anecdotally,

Dang, Godrulz! You screwed up with the very first word! :darwinsm:

 

[godrulz]

Dang, Godrulz! You screwed up with the very first word! :darwinsm:

The emphasis is on Scripture as the foundation, but the Bible is replete with experiential examples. They are not diametrically opposed, but should line up. We do not put experience above the Word, nor should we divorce the two. God is real and we can experience Him as such.

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz wrote,

Anecdotally, some believers struggle in their faith and walk with God. They do not experience freedom and seem more fleshly than spiritual. Others glorify God and love Him and others passionately. The Church of Corinth and Rome is a good case study. Sanctification is automatic in one sense, but not in another sense. You have to do something with all the commands, exhortations, use of the words 'obedience', 'yielding', 'walking', etc. in Pauline theology (and others).

As I see the obedience verses in Paul, the word obedience seems closer to the idea of belief as it is used in all of Paul’s epistles.

Rom 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 5:19 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 6:16 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 16:19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
Rom 16:26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith
2 Cor 7:15 And his affections are greater for you as he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.
2 Cor 9:13 while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men
2 Cor 10:5,6 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
Philemon 21 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Don't get me wrong. I think a lot of people who say they are believers, don't really trust Christ as their savior. I know I didn't, even though I said I did beleive in Christ as my savior.

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz wrote,


As I see the obedience verses in Paul, the word obedience seems closer to the idea of belief as it is used in all of Paul’s epistles.

Rom 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 5:19 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 6:16 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name
Rom 16:19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
Rom 16:26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith
2 Cor 7:15 And his affections are greater for you as he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.
2 Cor 9:13 while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men
2 Cor 10:5,6 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
Philemon 21 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

This is certainly one theme, but not the only theme:

The Romans 6 context talks about obedience relating to choices in contrast to yielding to the flesh. All of the commands (imperatives) and exhortations in Ephesians, Cor., etc. assume an appropriate response of obedience rather than disobedience relating to love, anger, immorality, parents, slaves, etc.

If we looked at every use of obey/obedience or its principles, we would see both themes in the OT and NT.

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Remember, as a Mid Acts dispensationalist, the Old Testament material is not applicable to the Body of Christ as well as the New Testament Gospels and the Circumcision epistles and Revelation.

All scripture is profitable, but only Paul's epistles are written to the Body of Christ.

We also believe that even some of Paul's Pre-prison Epistles have material in them that passed away, like speaking in tongues and raising the dead.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz,

Remember, as a Mid Acts dispensationalist, the Old Testament material is not applicable to the Body of Christ as well as the New Testament Gospels and the Circumcision epistles and Revelation.

All scripture is profitable, but only Paul's epistles are written to the Body of Christ.

We also believe that even some of Paul's Pre-prison Epistles have material in them that passed away, like speaking in tongues and raising the dead.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I agree about OT/Old Covenant shadow/type material, yet much of it applies universally to any believer (Psalms/Proverbs express wisdom and the human heart in prayer to God). When I studied Johannine theology, I did not find it diametrically opposed to Pauline teaching, but complementary. The same for Petrine theology. Negating much of the post-resurrection NT for the Church is one of my bigger concerns with Mid-Acts (secondary application is still less than the original intention, in my mind). It is not as bad as the Jesus Seminar that picks and choses what is true or not, but the effect is similar (assuming Mid-Acts is not the correct view).

 

[epistemaniac]

Does anyone happen to know the philosophical name for open view theism? For instance, Determanism and Fatalism are basically the same as Closed View.

its an odd mix of Greek philosophy, Socinianism and Process Philosophy with a touch of Deism

 

[Clete]

its an odd mix of Greek philosophy, Socinianism and Process Philosophy with a touch of Deism

Don't forget Humanist and Luciferian!

 

[Bob Hill]

Clete,

Good response. I wonder what they really think we believe.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Wrote

I agree about OT/Old Covenant shadow/type material, yet much of it applies universally to any believer (Psalms/Proverbs express wisdom and the human heart in prayer to God). When I studied Johannine theology, I did not find it diametrically opposed to Pauline teaching, but complementary. The same for Petrine theology. Negating much of the post-resurrection NT for the Church is one of my bigger concerns with Mid-Acts (secondary application is still less than the original intention, in my mind). It is not as bad as the Jesus Seminar that picks and choses what is true or not, but the effect is similar (assuming Mid-Acts is not the correct view).

I agree that concerning Old Testament material, “much of it applies universally to any believer”. I’ve agreed before that all scripture is profitable. It’s just that all scripture is not written to us, but Paul’s epistles are to us.

The most important truth the Bible shows about this situation that we are discussing is the progressive revelation over many dispensations (literally, house rules) and many years.

What they had to believe, essentially, has changed from dispensation to dispensation (oikonomia means house rule). For instance, we see that Peter was saved, but the Scripture shows that early in Christ’s ministry, Peter did not understand that the death and resurrection of Christ was what was necessary for his salvation.

Later Paul was inspired by God to show how to be saved in our present dispensation, the Dispensation of Grace. 1 Co 15:1-4: “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you - unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.”

This salvation for us in this present dispensation of grace depended on believing certain things. He wrote, under inspiration, that the gospel of salvation in the dispensation of Grace rested on the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

Do we have to be water baptized in this present dispensation of grace, to have our sins forgiven? No.

But, under the dispensation when the 11 were presenting the message to the Jews after Christ’s resurrection, but before the body of Christ started with the salvation of Paul, Peter said they had to be water baptized to be saved. Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, after the Dispensation of Grace had started, he explained to them since he had been to Corinth, that it was Spirit baptism, now.

1 Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

The 12 apostles under the gospel of the circumcision preached that you had to be water baptized to be saved, in contrast to the message that God gave Paul to write and preach. Paul wrote in 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

It seems to me that Peter did preach the death and resurrection of Christ early in Acts. Water baptism was normative in the early church, including during Paul's ministry. It was never salvific. Likewise, early in Acts, people were added to the Church. This was not just external membership nor an exclusively Jewish church. They were baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ and filled with the Spirit as a subsequent experience for empowerment. I do not see things held back until Paul's conversion.

Unless we walk through the NT verse by verse, we will continue to see the historical narratives differently. I can live with that.

Thank you again for your thoughtful responses.