ARCHIVE: Lying is never righteous!

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Sheepdog
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

Direct deception, and disobedience to the governing authorities!
Sheepdog, what a great point!

Think about this....

On this thread we all these people claiming they would be brave and NOT lie to the Nazi's and turn over the hiding Jewish family. They think that telling the truth is brave in those circumstances! That is ridiculous!

Being brave would be... deceiving the wicked Nazi's!

Telling the truth to the Nazi's would only guarantee the safety of yourself! Deceiving the Nazi's would be risking your own life to save the life of others, similar to your Moses reference.

Notice....
and they were not afraid of the king's edict. They were not afraid to die! They would put their life on the line to save the child (as did the hebrew midwives). Now THAT is bravery!!!

The opposite of bravery would be leading the authorities to the hiding family (or child) whatever the case may be and making yourself an accomplice to the murder! That's not bravery.... its cowardliness!
 
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cirisme

Guest
I could be wrong (or gasp) I could actually be understanding what Ciris is trying to do.. but this is what I think. He has misunderstood our position as saying that the need to preserve life trumps every other moral imperative given. Thus, he is trying to box us into a corner thinking that consistency would demand that our position would say that we would deny Christ to save our own hides. Of course all of that is based upon a gross misunderstanding of the whole point in the first place.

You guys have no clue what I am trying to establish, do you? :D
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
You guys have no clue what I am trying to establish, do you?

For once I am relieved to be wrong, for to be right would mean that I am starting to understand your thought process :eek: LOLOLOLOL
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by cirisme


You guys have no clue what I am trying to establish, do you? :D
No, but I am sure not gonna let you estabish anything on a faulty premise.

So there is no reason to answer your question (at least not at this point).
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
You don't even know what premise I'm going on.

Errr.... [smart aleck comment deleted in an exercise of unusual self-control, or possibly due to uncontrolable laughter after see the Dee Dee Bobble Head doll which is undeniably more fit than the Freak Bobble Head doll, though a tad bit too provocative]
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
cirisme, OK I will ignore your faulty premise and answer.....

Your question was...
Let me start out by asking this, if you were in a situation where you had to choose between denying Jesus and living, or not denying Jesus and dying(sp?), which would you choose?
Your question relies on the fact that an EVIL force is threatening my life.

I have NO obligation to tell an evil force the truth!

Especially if my living could help my family or others to survive at a later date.
Mark 15:2 Then Pilate asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” He answered and said to him, “It is as you say.” 3 And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing. 4 Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, “Do You answer nothing? See how many things they testify against You!” 5 But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.
Jesus was directly asked to identify Himself yet He answered nothing. The truth is that Jesus was the Son of God! One with the Father (John 10:30). Yet He did not tell answer Pilate with the truth! A truthful answer to Pilate held the keys to ETERNAL life! Yet Jesus answered not!

Jesus is the truth, but He is not held hostage by the truth or by being "truthful" as in the above case. Jesus demonstrates that truth has no obligation to wickedness. Obliging wickedness.... is in essence complying with wickedness which of course is evil.
 
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cirisme

Guest
Your question relies on the fact that an EVIL force is threatening my life.

I have NO obligation to tell an evil force the truth!

Especially if my living could help my family or others to survive at a later date.

So, you would deny Jesus to save your life?
 

Jaltus

New member
Dee Dee,

Well, it is obvious to me that you have not read any of my posts. I have stated time and again and again and again that when I said lying, I was specifically referring to telling untruth in order to deceive. Claim all you wish that I am "falling on my sword," all it shows is how grossly inattnetive you have been to my postings.

So, Jaltus is taking the position that it is okay to deceive unbelievers which of course refutes his earlier dogmatic statement that telling truth in order to deceive is NOWHERE condemned, and he has basically advocating the same position as I am, just with a different moral imperative. I have said that it is not immoral, and in fact righteous, in certain situation to lie. Jaltus is saying that it is not immoral in certain situations to deceive someone. He thinks it makes a whole honking world of difference that the vehicle for the deception is a truth rather than a falsehood… a reversal of Hank’s objection…. Jaltus has the means justifying the end, a logical absurdity.
I stand by my position that it is okay to deceive with the truth.

Leviticus 19:11 does say in fact "do not use untruth to mislead one another." The word in Hebrew in fact means to speak untruth in order to decieve, that which I have preached against since the beginning. The problem with Dee Dee's argument is that she imports her own definitions into the text.

You see, Dee Dee, there is nowhere in the Bible that teaches against using truth to deceive. Your own argument shows your lack of study, as you have completely mishandled the biblical text arguing your own definitions instead of arguing scripture.

Once again, your inflated self-worth is shown to be just that, inflated.

I am glad that I get to be a pin for you.

Again, do you ever plan on dealing with my argument from God's character that none of you have dealt with yet? Oh, I admit that Knight tried, but his attempt was found lacking, and not just by me but by other readers as well.
 

Jaltus

New member
Oh, the Hebrew word is shaqar, meaning "to deal falsely" or "be false."

The noun form is sheqer, which means "a lie."

Isn't it interesting that the very words of scripture have the exact definition that I have been using all along?

*hands Dee Dee the sword*

I think someone was going to fall on something?
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Jaltus, Jaltus, Jaltus.. this is going to be fun. I will keep you in suspense for a few.....

*hands Dee Dee the sword*

Not content to be eviscerated eh?? Now you want to have your head lobbed off as well?? Well first let me wipe off the blood and guts and get out my sharpening stone....
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
And I haven't forgotten about you Hank, it is just that Jaltus is feeling his oats more than usual, and this is a rare opportunity.
 
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cirisme

Guest
All the arrogance. :noid:

I just realized why I stopped posting here. :doh:
 

Jaltus

New member
Ciris,

You missed an e-mail exchange where we (Dee Dee and myself) decided to be intentionally insulting just for fun. It actually is keeping the mood light. Hank just joined in naturally.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by cirisme


So, you would deny Jesus to save your life?
Depending on the circumstances YES! Of course wouldn't you? Or are you held hostage by truth so that you are obligated to help wickedness?
 

Jaltus

New member
Knight and SD,

You make a mockery out of 2000 years of Christendom.

Luke 12:8-9
8 "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God.
9 But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

Looks like you guys need to read some more scripture.
 
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