ARCHIVE: Hello. (funniest "hello" thread ever!)
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Sure.....red77 said:
I said.....
Mercy cannot exist if punishment doesn't exist.
Is God merciful?
(i.e., what does mercy mean if there is no punishment to be spared?)
To which you responded....
I can only assume that you believe that verse 31 is in regard to individuals and them NOT being sent to hell. Nothing could be further from the truth. The entire book on Lamentations is Jeremiah's lamenting of Jerusalem's destruction (hence the name Lamentations).red77 said:
None of this can be stripped from its context or does complete injustice to God's word. I call this tactic: refrigerator theology - it's as if people think the entire Bible is just a collection of random sayings and verses that can be made into "stand-alone" sayings and stuck to their refrigerator. The book Lamentations has a plot, a story, a meaning that is much more than unconnected verses that could be stuck as magnets to your refrigerator.
The author of Lamentations is saying... this is not the end of Jerusalem nor of Israel. Lamentations is about a nations suffering, it has nothing to do with individual salvation or hell.
Read the first chapter of Lamentations, it's sad and tragic and is the topic for the entire book....
Lamentations 1:1 How lonely sits the city That was full of people! How like a widow is she, Who was great among the nations! The princess among the provinces Has become a slave! 2 She weeps bitterly in the night, Her tears are on her cheeks; Among all her lovers She has none to comfort her. All her friends have dealt treacherously with her; They have become her enemies. 3 Judah has gone into captivity, Under affliction and hard servitude; She dwells among the nations, She finds no rest; All her persecutors overtake her in dire straits. 4 The roads to Zion mourn Because no one comes to the set feasts. All her gates are desolate; Her priests sigh, Her virgins are afflicted, And she is in bitterness.
Note the sad reflection....Lamentations 1:12 “Is it nothing to you, all you who pass by? Behold and see If there is any sorrow like my sorrow, Which has been brought on me, Which the LORD has inflicted In the day of His fierce anger.
God was fiercely mad at Israel, and why? "For the LORD has afflicted her Because of the multitude of her transgressions." (v 5)Yet God would not cast off Israel forever...
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever. 32 Though He causes grief, Yet He will show compassion According to the multitude of His mercies.
Next up....
If you believe that mercy triumphs over judgment, what judgment does God show us mercy from? :think:
Keep in mind the brutal context of the phrase "Mercy triumphs over judgment."
For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13
In other words.... those that have shown no mercy will be judged and receive no mercy.
Knight said:
Firstly, if we are to believe that God is indeed A a God of Love and has a multitude of tender mercies then logically it follows that eternal torment is at the very least questionable, also I agree in as much as a few stand alone verses on top of a fridge dont amount to much but to believe that God restores his OWN handiwork does not do this anyway as has already been shown at length on other threads, also - by merely undercutting the passage in Lamentations to mean that God WILL in fact cast off people (from Isreal or anywhere else) forever is just to undercut God's mercy (again) The verse says what it says, are we to not acknowledge a verse from Corinthians because it was addressed to a particular people at the time and not a modern audience, if that is the case then why read the Bible at all??!
Allow me to expand on some of the segments of this thread to make a point as to why eternal torment is so insidious,
So often on here there is talk of executing those who kill/rape and molest, to be honest - I think all of the afore mentioned are capital crimes - but in the eternal torment scenario the victims of murder are just as bound to be rotting in a torture pit as their abusers! I've had this out with pastor Kevin, Hitler ends up being alongside his victims because its NOT being a murderer/rapist/molestor that gains entry to 'hell' IS it - in traditional theology????! Many of the victims of 9/11 will most likely be awaiting eternal torment of one kind or another - is that a fair assumption if eternal torment is correct?
I have a sister who has been raped, it aint something you can just walk away from when someone you love suddenly turns into a shadow of their former selves when even a 100yard trek to the corner shop becomes an ordeal without company, and yet according to eternal torment - had my sister actually been KILLED as well as raped the best I could hope for would be for her dying moments to have included crying out to God - otherwise her eternity would effectively be being raped and murdered again and again and again and again by the laws of eternal suffering, is it ANY WONDER that doctrines of eternal torment make a mockery of God's mercy and love? People cry out for justice and killing for rape and murder because of morality and yet the idea that God inflicts unutterable pain and suffering that no human being could EVER inflict is just swept under a carpet to maintain 'orthodoxy'. Its 'justice' :doh:
whats even more intriguing is that those who ascribe to ET cant even agree among it themselves, Pastor Kevin has made it abundantly clear that he believes the lake of fire to be a literal burning lake of fire, you made it clear in another thread that (despite your strong support for the pastor) you believe it to be metaphorical, can you explain in clear and concise terms just why there is ANY disagreement between you at all? With something at stake such as eternal suffering should it not be CRYSTAL CLEAR just exactly what that entails??????????
i'm afraid I dont find anything particularaly brutal about mercy triumphing over judgement, were it the other way around then I would but fortunately it isnt....
Sorry Red, I don't base my theology off of feelings and anecdotes, and you apparently do.
Nice talkin' with ya. Universalism is just not something I am interested in. It's like debating folks that think we didn't actually land on the moon.
Nice talkin' with ya. Universalism is just not something I am interested in. It's like debating folks that think we didn't actually land on the moon.
The brutal part is the context of the verse which you conveniently skip.red77 said:
James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Did ya get that Red?
For judgment is without mercy
For judgment is without mercy
For judgment is without mercy
For judgment is without mercy
For judgment is without mercy
For judgment is without mercy
For who?
"one who has shown no mercy."
Knight said:
I dont "base" my theology off feelngs and anecdotes either thanks, I'm not above recognising how feelings and morality come into play either though and to be fair that goes for most people here as well including yourself, you make your own feelings clear on issues and criticise those who dont go along with them, fine, so do I but I'll address the issues as best I can also, if you cant address how I find it absolutely REPUGNANT that a theology exists where my raped sister could actually be in eternal agony had she been killed - then at least on a theological level you could at least attempt to explain why you and the pastor are at odds over what should be very clear and concise in regards to the lake of fire.........
Knight said:
Yeah, of COURSE I got it, I'm just trying to work out the relevance to how this ties in with eternal torment, its like what measure we show others is whats going to be met back to us, if we show no mercy to our neighbours then it comes back on us in one form or another, yet - this doesnt address the fact that "mercy TRIUMPHS over judgement" mercy wins out!! Thats why 'even' those who we like to point to as being so much more 'evil' than ourselves such as Hitler can still be redeemed - unless mercy is actually triumphed over by judgement?
Uh yes... I am afraid you do...red77 said:
I offer exhibit A:
Truth doesn't revolve around what you do or do not find REPUGNANT.
Both PK and I believe the Bible when it says that those that reject God will live forever without Him. Ultimately that's what's important. We may disagree on the accommodations, but that's about it.
Mercy wins out over judgment if you are shown mercy! If not, judgment is NOT merciful! :duh:red77 said:
It's like its all right there in front of you but you place your hands over your eyes and say.... I don't think God should be like that so I am gonna ignore it.
You rip the heart out of the plain and clear gospel.
Knight said:
This is a strawman, I have never claimed that truth revolves around my feelings to begin with, what I said was I do not "base" my theology around them which is the truth, my theology is based in the word itself, and to be quite frank noone on this site is above bringing their own feelings into debates no matter what side of the fence they're on theologically speaking, I'm not above doing the same myself but its got nothing to do with the fundamentals of my beliefs
Well its a big "it", there shouldnt be any disagreement between you whatsoever on something so important, over on the battle talk there have been arguments about how the word is so simple that a child can understand it, clearly not the case when it comes to the lake of fire. Why is there any difference between you and the pastor at all? Why do you interpret the lake of fire to be something metaphorical and PK thinks its a literal lake? Would God really make something like this so hard to agree on? :think:
Maybe if you REALLY, REALLY close your eyes tight you wont be able to see the first part of the verse.red77 said:
Keep them held tight because here goes.... (again)
James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Now what judgment might that be Red? :think:
It goes like this Red....
If you don't humble yourself before God.... judgment is without mercy! If you do humble yourself before God.... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Why is that people use verses that destroy their own point as a proof text!!!
Knight said:Maybe if you REALLY, REALLY close your eyes tight you wont be able to see the first part of the verse.
Keep them held tight because here goes.... (again)
James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
Now what judgment might that be Red? :think:
It goes like this Red....
If you don't humble yourself before God.... judgment is without mercy! If you do humble yourself before God.... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Why is that people use verses that destroy their own point as a proof text!!!
How on earth do you tie 'judgement is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy' to tie in with eternal torment? Its not even relevant! It doesnt say anything about receiving no mercy for unbelief at all but rather for the act of showing no mercy in our own lives to other people! How is humbling oneself before God got anything to do with that particular sentence, how has that got anything to do with not showing mercy to another?
:rotfl:red77 said:
Red.... who brought up James 2:13 and tied it to eternal judgment or lack thereof? Me? Or you?
Oh my... this is truly classic! :rotfl:
Knight said:
Er, not the sentence which you're quoting I havent and never have, nor have i ever heard your interpretation of it to mean that judgement without mercy is only applied to those who have unbelief when it says for those who havent shown mercy themselves, so I ask you again - please explain............
I already did!red77 said:
You are intentionally blind for which I cannot cure you. It's your own curse.
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